Deputy Sheriff Kara Talks Wellness

In this episode, we talk with Kara. Kara is currently a Deputy Sheriff and an advocate of mental wellness. Please tune in to hear Kara share key points from her career, along with some advice she offers to other LEOs to help them survive and thrive. If you want to contact Kara, you can reach her at ravenconsultingkc@gmail.com and on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/kclarkl41/.

Potential trigger warning: Kara discusses an officer-involved shooting.

Side Note: the book we briefly discussed is The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van Der Kolk.

Transcript

Dr. Vernon Phillips (00:00.842)
All right, welcome back to Critical Aspects. I'm your host, Vernon Phillips, and today we're joined with Deputy Sheriff Kara. So Kara, I'm glad to have you on the show, glad that you're able to be here. Thank you for taking the time to jump on here. So with that, we're just gonna go ahead and jump right in, we'll get started. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, just kind of your background, your history, your education, how long you've been in law enforcement, things like that.

Kara (00:25.038)
Okay, well, I've been in local level law enforcement for about 13 years now. Actually, at the end of this month, I'll be transitioning to a state job as an investigator. So I'm kind of looking forward to that, it's exciting. I didn't grow up with family in law enforcement. I did have some family that was in the military, but it wasn't, you know, no law enforcement in the family. However, I always knew growing up that I wanted to be in law enforcement.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (00:36.087)
Alright.

Kara (00:56.298)
So of course, you know, I pursued a criminal justice degree, which I always tell people now, don't do that unless you're wanting to be like a lawyer or something. That's not really the greatest use of a degree. But I have my master's in clinical mental health counseling. Actually completed that two years ago. So I've worked on that while I've been in my career. As far as like the things I like to do, I love traveling.

Love to travel. Well, I have a love-hate relationship with it. I hate driving, like, after the fact, especially when I have to drive back. But I love driving there. Like, I'll hop in a car and go to Ohio for a weekend. Just recently went up to West Virginia, drove up there. But probably one of the things I'm most known for, hobby-wise, is that I collect knives. And that's a big part of my personality.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (01:51.049)
Okay.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (01:55.958)
So what's the most unique knife that you own?

Kara (02:00.018)
So I actually have two K bars, which I love, but I'm gonna say the one that's the most unique is the one that has my grandfather's name and rank engraved into it and his date of birth and death and stuff. So, yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (02:03.094)
Okay.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (02:14.494)
That's pretty neat. Well, there's a lot there that I want to kind of jump into, but what is your everyday carry knife?

Kara (02:23.742)
My everyday carry knife is just a little, oh gosh, you know, you'd think I would know this because I carry it every day. It's just a little silver knife. It's a very common one. It sits in my pocket. It's my, you know, cut up my apple knife or, you know, whatever I need to use it for. Yes, yes, that's it.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (02:44.767)
Clean my fingernails and I, yep, yep. So kind of just jumping back, so you've got your bachelor's in criminal justice. We've already heard the caveat on that, hey, don't do that. But you've got your master's in, you said clinical psychology? Okay, mental health counseling, all right. So that is, that's interesting.

Kara (02:54.324)
Mm-hmm.

Kara (03:04.519)
Mental health counseling clinical mental health

Dr. Vernon Phillips (03:10.092)
So how does that coincide with your profession?

Kara (03:14.134)
Wow, so great you asked that, because it really does. Well, you know, there's two parts to it. You know, I don't know if y'all do the CIT stuff there where you're at, but so we do up here and that's, you know, obviously the mental health side of that is really what it is. I'm an instructor in that too. So, you know, all this knowledge I've had previously of mental health, mental health issues and stuff really allowed me to become a good CIT officer.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (03:30.326)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (03:41.494)
Okay.

Kara (03:42.262)
Then on the other side of the house of that, it's the mental health for officers. You know, that's a largely untouched thing, very taboo. And so, you know, one of the driving forces for me to get my degree was the fact that, you know, when I present, you know, information about mental health, mental wellness to like my fellow officers and stuff, I want to say, listen, I have this knowledge, I have this education, I have this expertise, this is...

Dr. Vernon Phillips (03:51.327)
Oh yeah.

Kara (04:11.51)
I know what I'm talking about.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (04:13.802)
Yeah, well that's good. So you probably have a library full of books from doing your masters. And so you're probably familiar with this one right here.

Kara (04:22.166)
Yes.

Kara (04:27.806)
Yes, I actually have read that one. It's been a while.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (04:30.326)
So yes, so this is, it reads like a textbook. It reads like a textbook, but there's a lot of good information in there. So I'm just about finished with this. So this is my first time reading through this one. And I'm like, holy smokes, there's so much.

So, but that's awesome. So I'm glad that you are a proponent of that, that you are pushing that, that you instruct others in that, because that is a huge, huge benefit to your agency, whether they know it or not, is having somebody that is culturally competent, right? That understands the profession, but also understands the mental health side of the profession, I'll get it out. You know, just an overall wellness.

Kara (05:06.987)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (05:17.862)
And that is a huge benefit. So thank you for that. So as we kind of keep moving forward, so knowing that, knowing what your master's is in and that you are a part of pushing mental health, wellness and just awareness for law enforcement, how do you take care of yourself? How do you just make sure that you are physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually just taken care of? Like, how do you do all that?

Kara (05:46.782)
Well, I don't go to the gym like I should go to the gym, but I think that's probably most of us.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (05:53.691)
Yeah, yeah, there's probably a lot of us that can kind of be in that category. And then there's some that need to kind of maybe just dial it back a little bit. But yeah.

Kara (05:58.644)
Yeah.

Kara (06:02.994)
Yeah, it can become your whole personality, which is just as bad as it not being a part of your, what you are and stuff. So, I go walk dogs with my friend every afternoon typically. As far as like on the mental emotional level, I am always talking with my friends, you know, anytime that you know there's been something we've dealt with at work, I make sure that I flesh it out.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (06:09.611)
This is Drew.

Kara (06:31.514)
I don't keep it in, I don't internalize it, I don't try to forget about it. I talk through whatever points, you know, bother me about it. And on the spiritual level, I'm a Christian, I try to get to church every Sunday. I have a devotional that I read in the mornings and my favorite thing is I listen to my Christian music in my patrol car.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (06:52.67)
All right, well that's good. So did you say that you actually talk about it? Yes, it's crazy. Oh man, I mean, it's almost like that's, what do you mean you talk about your feelings? Yeah, we use the F word, feelings, right? And the other aspect of that is a lot of people, they might focus on the physical, like 80%. Some might focus on the emotional and the mental.

Kara (06:57.846)
Yes, I know. It's amazing what talking about it can do.

Kara (07:09.77)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (07:22.814)
And but a lot of people will leave out the spiritual side. A lot of people will leave out that just that aspect of how, you know, just having a relationship with Christ can really benefit the way in which you walk through things, how you respond to things, because going to church, there's also a community there.

Kara (07:27.735)
Yeah.

Kara (07:48.045)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (07:48.35)
All right, and that means there's support and that means there's people there that care about you, that want what's best for you and they encourage you and they come alongside you. So there's a whole aspect of the spiritual health that in law enforcement, we just, again, we don't talk about, because most people probably don't, they don't wanna get sued or don't wanna get people all up, they don't wanna get people offended and all that. But hey, it's a vital part of it and it's a real part of it. So.

Kara (08:07.629)
Yes.

Kara (08:14.634)
Yes, absolutely.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (08:17.558)
So you did say that you walk, you walk your dogs, you walk dogs.

Kara (08:22.382)
I walk, my friend has two dogs and I walk her dogs with her.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (08:24.038)
Okay, okay, all right. Because I was like, did I hear that right? You said you walk dogs or you walk your dog? So you don't have a dog yourself. Okay, all right, it's okay. Oh, I forgive you. Sorry, I shouldn't say that. No, cats are okay if you wanna be aggravated your whole life. I mean, I'm so.

Kara (08:33.933)
I don't. I'm a... I have a cat. I'm a cat person.

Kara (08:48.734)
It's funny, I actually rescued her while I was working Shifla Night.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (08:54.91)
Alright. Is she aggravating?

Kara (08:58.939)
No, she is the most precious.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (09:01.878)
Okay, we'll leave that alone. We'll move on from there. So, as we look over just law enforcement, as you look over your career, you said you've got about 13 years in, right? And you're getting ready to transition into the federal level or the state level, correct? So that's exciting. Congratulations on that. So as you look back over your career, and we'll kind of get a little bit serious here for a minute, but, you know,

Kara (09:19.598)
state level yet.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (09:30.322)
is you think about all the calls that you've been on, calls for service, what is one of the ones that is the worst that kind of just really sits with you?

Kara (09:40.034)
So, and it's kind of.

It alludes back to another call, but back on June the 9th, 2022, he formally worked with us and then went to the city and started working. So it was a guy that we all knew. But he had responded to a domestic violence situation and ultimately he was killed. So when I got there and I was one of the first deputies on scene and maybe like the second officer on scene, you know, I unfortunately already knew that he was gone. But as I'm sitting there holding him not to get too graphic, but holding his head, it brought back memories of a previous call that I'd been on where a woman had been shot in the back of her head by her husband and stuff. And so it just really also kind of made me realize howtraumas intersect. You know, you think that you've gotten over something maybe you dealt with years ago, but when you find yourself in a similar situation you're going to remember that stuff.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (10:54.82)
Hmm?

Kara (10:57.976)
That was.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (10:58.318)
So how did you process through that?

Kara (11:01.282)
For me, initially, although my supervisors tried to get me to leave and go home, I told them, you know, I need to be here on scene. I need to be here for those city police officers. Like, this is what's helping me process is being right here and being useful at the time.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (11:20.308)
Okay, so what about after that? Was there anything after that you made sure that you were doing just to better help yourself push through that?

Kara (11:30.102)
Well, part of it was making sure that I talked to people. You know, we had the LEAPs come in, peer support, and we did that kind of stuff. And I talked through it with my coworkers and stuff like that, my friends, and just thought through the different aspects of it. And sometimes that can be the hardest part because honestly, it's been, I'm back a year ago, but...

One of the things that actually just came to my mind about the call that I'd never previously thought of when my chief and I were talking was, I can't imagine how he felt in that moment by himself, you know, wondering where's my backup and stuff. So that actually brought forth some stuff that I had to then turn like deal with because that stuff. Right.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (12:11.118)
Yeah.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (12:19.964)
Yeah, that's a whole other avenue in your mind thinking about that.

Kara (12:25.502)
Yes. So I just made sure to really just break down the parts of it and think about it. I had to get rid of some things like I got, unfortunately, his blood like all over my medical bag and stuff like that. And so, you know, I had to get rid of that because that is not something I could have kept because it would have been just like that constant memory and stuff like that. And it's.

It's difficult. It can be difficult, but that's why you can't just go to sleep at night and never talk about it.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (13:03.646)
Yeah, so that's a big thing is that you actually talked about it. You actually, you know, processed it. You, even though it was difficult, you walked through it and you, you kind of, you know, hammered out some of the things that you didn't really want to probably hammer out, but you needed to. And, um, and that's what helps us to kind of recover from that. Because like you said, it's not so much, you know, there's a lot of research that's been done now. There's not so much one particular event, right? It's the culmination.

Kara (13:10.687)
Mm-hmm.

Kara (13:21.965)
Yes.

Kara (13:32.654)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (13:32.686)
of multiple events that really start to have that effect on law enforcement. So the more of those that you actually debrief from and kind of walk through and talk about, then the less likelihood that they'll have a prolonged effect on you. Doesn't mean in the moment, initially, for a short term that it's not going to have some type of presenting concern in your life. But...

Kara (13:36.439)
Yes.

Kara (13:50.785)
Right.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (13:59.542)
the likelihood of it presenting into something else is more prolonged, needing more in-depth, let's say treatment or some type of counseling, significantly reduces when you actually stop and deal with it. But that's not what we do, right? We don't deal with things as they come, one after the other, we kind of wait until we push it all in and then everything comes out at once. And that's where we see we have bad separations or.

Kara (14:13.13)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (14:29.178)
involuntary separations or we see officers making bad decisions or unfortunately we see officers taking their life as a result of just all the things they're trying to deal with and they just can't. We talked briefly about this, but that's one of the reasons why I asked this question is to stir the conversation to actually talk about the things you've gone through because the more you talk about it, the less likely it's going to...

Kara (14:29.409)
Mm-hmm.

Kara (14:37.048)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (14:57.086)
end up manifesting in your life into some other presenting concerns. So the more we talk about it, the more we can get ahead of it.

Kara (15:05.238)
Absolutely.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (15:07.198)
So you mentioned leaps. So leaps as in Tim Rutledge leaps. I know Tim. Tim is a great guy. Tim is a great friend of mine. So he's come out to our agency twice now. And I have, you know, I'll call Tim quite often. He is a busy, busy man. But.

Kara (15:10.253)
Yes.

Kara (15:13.822)
Yes! You know Tim Rillage, what a smart world!

Kara (15:21.61)
Yes.

Kara Clark (15:30.978)
He knows his stuff.

Yes, he is.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (15:35.862)
But he's got some really awesome, awesome things that he does. And so you having your, you know, your masters, you know, in, in counseling, there's, there's dynamics of what Tim does that is a whole lot different than Sysm, right? And it's just so there's, it's kind of like the, to me, I look at like the Sysm aspect, right? You're right.

Kara (15:56.407)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (16:05.314)
I don't want to say old. Okay, the traditional way that we would debrief and diffuse and all of that, that's kind of more of the, I look at it as the academic side, right? And then with what Tim brings in with peer support and like the one-on-one coaching and things like that, that kind of gets more down to the personal side where it's like a practical application, right?

Kara (16:18.935)
Mm-hmm.

Kara (16:32.355)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (16:35.302)
of what you can actually do and the benefit of it is so much better in my opinion. So sorry for all of you, sorry for all of you, Sysm fanatics out there that you're diehard on that. I'm not saying it's not useful because it is. There's definitely aspects of that are useful. I've got a friend that he teaches that, does an excellent job doing that. But when we start talking about, and even Tim talks about this.

Kara (16:44.074)
Oh no, I agree.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (17:05.13)
When you start talking about cops, this is what really works with cops, right? With law enforcement. So, but yeah, Tim is a great guy. So, to kind of help change the conversation a little bit. So, we talked about the worst call. Now, what is the funniest or most awkward call for service that you've had?

Kara (17:09.315)
Yes.

Kara (17:25.678)
So I still have to say hands down the funniest call was early in my career, we had this little gas station that sells like, you know, the hot dogs and stuff out of it or whatever. And this was a shift of we had about 12 people on shift everywhere from our depth patrol deputies or patrol officers to the DUI, to the K9, to our Sergeant Lieutenant and stuff like that. But, so the area I was patrolling in is where the call came in and dispatch had said that the person was calling because the cashier would not put their hotdog into a bag because the cashier didn't want to touch the person's food. And we're like, this is the most ridiculous. So we all showed up to let this person know how ridiculous it was to call 911 over that.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (18:14.122)
Uh... How dare you not bag my hot dog!

Kara (18:19.739)
Right?

Dr. Vernon Phillips (18:22.138)
I am paying for this service, I am paying for this gas station hot dog that's probably been on the roller for the last three days. So you're taking a chance on getting the hot dog anyway. And then you want to bag it up like you're going to just take it home and save it for another couple days. That's very interesting. So they called 911 because they would not bag the hot dog.

Kara (18:29.964)
Yes.

Kara (18:33.76)
right.

Kara (18:39.168)
Right.

Kara (18:43.242)
Yes, absolutely. We thought like you've got to be kidding. Like there's like real stuff happening and you're mad because they won't pick up your hot dog. When you can pick up your hot dog and put it in a bag.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (18:55.762)
Oh, that is pretty funny. So as you look back over your career, what are three of the most significant things that you've learned in law enforcement?

Kara (19:05.81)
Well, the first is trust your gut. Like always trust your gut. If it feels like it's off, it is, you know. The second thing, and I was taught this in the academy, is be nice until it's time not to be nice anymore. And that also goes back to really helping to deescalate situations because, you know, we're not going to somebody who's had a great day. I mean, if they're calling us, it's not a good time. Right.

And so, you know, sometimes people's reaction is anger or fear. It's over the top, right? But if you're nice to them, that can bring them down. That can change like everything. And then the last one is probably like a really controversial one because you know, this is also kind of up there with the things that people don't want to talk about but bad officers make us all look bad. So, you know,

You have to, as part of protecting and serving, is protecting people from those unethical officers, those ones that are breaking the laws. So when you see that stuff happening, we all have that, everywhere, kids especially, snitches get stitches mentality, right? But you can't.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (20:15.74)
Mm-hmm.

Kara (20:30.334)
allow someone to be unethical and break the law and just sit back and watch them do it because then you're just as much in the wrong as they are.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (20:39.474)
Yeah. Wow. So I haven't heard that one yet, but I want to even add onto that with that. So with bad officers, I would even add in the retired on duty ones as well. Because while they may not be doing something, you know, like they're breaking the law or whatever, they're doing something unethical. If you're retired on duty, you are a danger to yourself and your danger to those around you.

Kara (20:54.012)
Ah yes.

Kara (21:07.734)
Yes. Absolutely. I've seen that before actually, yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (21:12.318)
Yep. But yeah, so those are definitely three good points. So knowing that law enforcement is a very demanding profession, and also the fact that you have your masters in counseling, do you feel that we prepare individuals enough who are coming into the profession, who are just getting into the job?

Kara (21:34.838)
Mostly yes. And that really is gonna depend on the department because obviously academies are great. But once you get out of the academy, forget everything you've taught because that's a how to do it, but it's not a how it's done type thing. Because once you actually get out of the academy and get into real policing, it's 100% different, right? So I think really...

Dr. Vernon Phillips (21:50.626)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (21:56.779)
Yeah.

Kara (22:00.354)
The biggest part to doing enough to prepare somebody is the FTO process. Make sure that nothing is being skipped in it. I realize that sometimes when departments are short or whatever and they need those boots on the grounds, they may have to, they may skip a process here or there, but really, if you have someone who's never been in law enforcement, they need to get as much on the job training as possible. And that's why I really think the FTO process is super important.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (22:29.97)
Yeah, and with that, so with FTOs, I think that when we start talking about mental health and the stigma, right, and how it's kind of a taboo subject and nobody wants to talk about it, I think sometime that gets passed down from FTOs, right? It's like a reoccurring cycle that, because you show up to a call and let's say it's somebody in there, I'm not sure how it works with y'all, but let's say they're day one or first phase.

Kara (22:39.511)
Mm-hmm.

Kara (22:44.074)
Yes. Yes, it does.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (22:59.266)
and it's a suicide and they get there and somebody had taken their head off with a shotgun. And the trainees looking at this like, oh man, this is not right. They're trying to process this and they look over the FTO and the FTO is just kind of sitting there. And we all know that in their mind, the FTO is like, oh gosh, right? Another one or I've seen this too many times, like, oh, I'm tired of seeing this. It's affecting them.

Kara (23:14.606)
Mm-hmm.

Kara (23:28.383)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (23:29.162)
but they're not gonna show any emotion because they've got a trainee, right? And the trainee is gonna look at the FTO and be like, okay, well, they're not showing any emotion, so I'm not saying nothing. If they're not saying nothing, I'm not saying nothing. So now what we've done is we've indoctrinated them and started the process all over again, right? So I think that that's something that I think FTOs could really start to work on, especially with ones who are just coming in that don't have any experience.

Kara (23:34.1)
right.

Kara (23:48.556)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (23:58.798)
And hey, when you get back in the car, be like, yeah, so we can agree that that's pretty messed up. Like that's not what we're, you know, people aren't supposed to see that, but we see it because it's part of our, you know, it's, it's part of our profession. Unfortunately, these are, these are some of the calls that we go to. These are some of the things we're going to see, but it's okay to do, you know, it's okay to decompress and talk about it, kind of debrief it a little bit. Like, but you and I both know what happens is what

Kara (24:04.75)
Mm-hmm.

Kara (24:26.218)
Just ignore it.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (24:27.082)
Yep, nobody says anything and then it just kind of goes on from there.

Kara (24:30.538)
It's that very dangerous, suck it up, buttercup mentality.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (24:34.558)
Yep, there is, yep, that, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you know, stow it, stuff it, you know, stack it. We don't get mental health days, all of that, uh, which is ignorant, right? And, and we know, and you know, and I know this, that mentality statistically does not work, right? Because you may have that mentality. You may walk around like, Hey, I, I've got it all together. Nothing phases me. But.

Kara (24:43.02)
Mm-hmm.

Kara (24:47.147)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (25:04.938)
behind it all, there's probably some type, probably alcoholic, probably going through relationships like ridiculous, probably three, four marriages later, maybe dependency on drugs. On the inside, you're held together with bubble gum and duct tape because you're not dealing with the things that you see on a regular basis.

Kara (25:21.376)
Mm-hmm.

Kara (25:30.374)
And what a lot of, I think, especially your departments or agencies that don't buy into it, is that eventually that translates into how an officer works, how they treat the public they're dealing with.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (25:47.018)
Yep, because if they're internalizing that and it creates a hard, calloused, outer, I'm the tough guy, nothing fazes me, like you said, how's the interaction between the public? That tone they're gonna set. Anytime they interact with somebody from the public, they're like, I don't wanna talk to that guy, that guy's a, right? And then that person comes on scene and what happens in the situation?

Kara (26:10.187)
Absolutely.

Kara (26:16.639)
It escalates it.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (26:18.215)
It escalates it because they show up and they're like, you know, probably MF for this and MF for that. And what are you doing? And and everybody else like.

Kara (26:29.614)
See you.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (26:29.646)
So I think every agency has one of those. And if you happen to listen, you're like, I don't think so, that's probably you, right? Yep. So as you look back over your career and when you started and going through the academy, going through FTO and the different things that you've done in your 13 years,

Kara (26:33.943)
Yes.

Kara (26:39.078)
That's right.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (26:59.41)
What advice would you give to someone just starting out?

Kara (27:03.634)
Never skip the opportunity for training. You know, I tell people if you get to that point where you think you know it all, it's time to hang up your badge because that's a very dangerous place to be. And I mean, life is progressive, right? You've got to learn and keep up with the times and with things that are going on and you have to better yourself.

You can better yourself by just working every day and the people you work with, but you can also, and need to, better yourself by training. And that's whatever kind of training is available to you. That's going to your range and giving your all on your range days, on your defensive tactic days. That's going and learning about other things. I've been very fortunate in both departments that I've worked for to be able to basically attend any training that I wanted to go to.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (28:00.31)
Wow, that's awesome. Especially with training, there's always something you can learn. Even if you're sitting in a class and you're like, oh my goodness, this is terrible, right? That there's something, because you've probably been in a class, I've been in several classes, I'm sitting there and I'm like, you should not be an instructor. Like, what? What are you talking about? But there's something that you can learn from that, even if it's a takeaway for yourself, if you do any instructing yourself, like, okay.

Kara (28:19.918)
Yes!

Dr. Vernon Phillips (28:30.038)
These are the things I'm not gonna do. When I talk to a group of people, I'm probably not gonna do this or say this, but there's always something that you can learn, something that you can pick up to better yourself. And absolutely, and I think that people, like you said, getting law enforcement are like, hey, I'm gonna get my bachelor's in criminal justice, I'm gonna get my master's in criminal justice. And that's...

Kara (28:32.182)
Yes, absolutely.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (28:58.698)
that's great if that's what you want to do, but that also kind of pigeonholes you to kind of criminal justice. And if you're gonna be a career in law enforcement that has its benefits, but do something that can add to what you're already gonna learn in law enforcement. Right, so you're gonna do 30 years in law enforcement, so what is a...

Kara (29:07.521)
Yeah.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (29:26.526)
a bachelor's or master's in criminal justice at the end of the day, you know, gonna do for you when you can, you know, maybe get into something that's special, you know, like a specialty program that kind of, that comes alongside and accompanies that, right, what you're already gonna.

Kara (29:40.606)
And what's it gonna do for you after you get out also?

Dr. Vernon Phillips (29:43.666)
Yeah. So I mean, you could probably go and teach it at college or something like that, but like with you, you went ahead and you got your counseling degree, that's a huge benefit, right? So you mirror that with your law enforcement career and experience, that's a huge benefit. I mean, interweaving those together not only helps you, but it helps those you work with. So there's a lot of other avenues that you can look at, you can...

Kara (30:05.014)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (30:13.142)
kind of examine, so don't just get focused in on one specific area that you're like, oh, hey, I gotta do this. Well, but even in a criminal justice, you know, like Cognate, there's so many other things you can do that you can specialize, you know, if you decide to do something in criminal justice, you can specialize in, you know, some type of leadership or management or even crisis intervention or something like that within the context of criminal justice. But, you know, if you're, then do that, right? Better yourself that way  and bring some more tools to better equip yourself. So I think, I think training is huge.

Kara (30:38.595)
Mm-hmm.

Kara (30:52.866)
Right. And, doubly that, you know, when you go to trainings and you learn things, take it back to your people. Share with them so you're helping better them also.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (31:06.666)
Yeah, but if you share things, then you're not the person that everybody wants to come to.

Kara (31:13.596)
We shouldn't gatekeep stuff. That's a big problem too, I think.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (31:17.522)
Yep, and that's kind of why I said that, because you get people that go and then they don't want to share the things they've learned. It's like, well, the last time I checked, I think we're all on the same team, right? So if you have something that can better somebody else, why are we not sharing it? But I appreciate that. So yes, training is definitely a huge, huge thing. So what advice, kind of on the same lines, what advice would you?

Kara (31:28.897)
Right.

Kara Clark (31:33.683)
Exactly.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (31:45.518)
offer to somebody who's been in the profession for 10, 15, 20 plus years.

Kara (31:52.726)
Well, first, law enforcement is not what it was 15 plus years ago. You know, it's progressive, the world is progressive. And we have to, we really have to be mindful of that. You can't, you really can't police like they did in the old days and stuff. It's just, it's just not how it is. And it's not beneficial to anybody to stay stuck in that mindset of, well, this is how I did it way back when.

And then on the same token, you know, it's a lot of your old timers that are the ones that keep their heads stuck in the sand more about the mental health issues and, you know, mental wellness overall. So really.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (32:38.765)
We refer to them as dinosaurs.

Kara (32:40.766)
Yeah, I know some of those too. You know, it's just my advice to those ones, you know, to those people that have been in for a while. And you know, I'm between that 10 and 15 year mark, but I think it's more of your 15 to 20 plus year mark is to, you know, not to be proactive and to be progressive and stuff.

Also, like you said, with that retired on duty, get out of that mindset. We all know complacency kills. It's not that it just kills that officer, it could kill your partner, it could kill an innocent person. So I think once someone's got to that stage in their life and they're just really not about it anymore, they probably don't need to be on the streets.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (33:37.342)
Yeah, and they should probably just go ahead and retire. I mean, if that's, you know, if you're to that point where you're retired on duty, like you said, I mean, you're a danger to yourself, to those around you, to the community, but not only that, it could also be a morale killer. I mean, we wanna get into a whole other conversation. You know, let's talk about morale and how that gets to be, you know, in the tank where a lot of times it ends up.

Kara (33:53.994)
Yes, absolutely.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (34:07.402)
And a lot of times it's because of leadership that is kind of stuck in that, well, this is the way we've always done it, right? Well, when I was, you know, kicking in doors and whatever they're doing, you know, they'd say, well, this is what we used to do. Well, okay, well, you know, what you did in 1970, you can't do today, right? There was a guy I worked with several years ago and...

Kara (34:15.093)
Yes.

Kara (34:30.763)
Right.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (34:38.014)
He had worked for New Orleans and this was back in like the late 60s into the 70s. And you know, they would talk, he would talk about all kinds of crazy things. Um, but he had that old, you know, that kind of that old mindset and, uh, his thing about dealing with things was he was, he was a function alcoholic. I mean, and that's, he said, yeah, after shift, we would just all drink until we passed out or, you know, and then we'd get up and do it all over again. He's like, you know, that's, that's just what we did.

Kara (34:52.77)
Um.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (35:07.094)
That's how we dealt with it. And I think that type of mentality like that, just, you know, well, this is what we did and this is how we've always done it. It can be cancerous. I mean, obviously there's some things that we do that are proven that have been, you know, over the years are the steady go-to things that we do, right? But when it comes to taking care of yourself, taking care of your wellbeing,

Kara (35:18.988)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (35:35.498)
and taking care of each other, those kind of things change. Those evolve, right? So I think that as over the next five to 10 years, I think you'll see a change in this. I think you'll see a shift as some of the older mentality gets out because it's something that's been ingrained for generations, right? You know, that we don't talk about our feelings. We don't talk about the call and how it makes us feel.

Kara (35:41.355)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (36:04.802)
because that's a bad word, right? The F word's a bad word and we don't say the F word. But I think that as time progresses on, the more we talk about it now on the forefront, five, 10 years from now, you'll see the ones that are now, they're gonna be five, 10, 15 years into the acrylic, well, we've always talked about this, right? We've always talked about taking care of yourself and we've always debriefed after.

Kara (36:07.582)
Over.

Kara (36:26.368)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (36:32.694)
you know, critical, it's a traumatic event or high stress event, right? We've always, this is something we've always done, right? You know, we go and talk to people all the time. So I think that you'll see that organically change over the next several years. But right now it's just, you're in that tough time where you're trying to push it, right? You're trying to make it forefront, but you're still kind of getting some of that pushback, you know, from, you know, some of the dinosaurs are like, well, you know, that's...

Kara (36:55.883)
Oh yeah.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (37:03.01)
It's not the way we did it.

Kara (37:04.863)
Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (37:06.018)
So, and you know, we all know what happens to dinosaurs. So, I probably shouldn't say that, but I mean, but that's the thing, right? Is you deal with the things that are manifesting in your life. And you deal with it on your terms, right? Controlling it and dealing with the best you can, or it's gonna deal with you.

Kara (37:35.19)
Yes, absolutely.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (37:36.854)
So it's not, if it manifests, it's when.

Kara (37:40.278)
And you know, I think unfortunately a lot of people, or probably especially your more stoic officers, you know, they think, well, it's not gonna bother me, it's not gonna bother me, but probably one of my favorite quotes is, "'Trauma and stress are no respecter of man.'" So it doesn't matter who you are, whether you want to think it won't, it will. And you know, if you don't deal it like we've said, it's gonna come back.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (38:07.946)
Yep, yep. And I do wanna say that they're, not everybody who's been in the career 20, 25, 30 plus years is that way. There are some that are very, very much a proponent of, you know, just wellness in general, taking care of people. You know, so I'm fortunate that we have people like that in our agency. I know there's other agencies around that have people like that. So...

Kara Clark (38:18.134)
Yeah.

Kara (38:25.482)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (38:34.794)
There are, I want to make sure that we interject that, that I give that credit where credit is due because we do have people that have been in the career for a long time that see the importance of it, right? And they want to see more of it because they didn't have it. They're the ones that look back and they're like, man, I wish we had this 20 years ago. Because now we talk about all the stuff that they dealt with, it's law enforcement still dealing with, right? So.

Kara (38:45.067)
Yes.

Kara (38:55.371)
Right.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (39:04.434)
Not talking about it doesn't make it go away. And not talking about it doesn't resolve it. So there's ways to start integrating that. And some of those that have been in a profession for a long time that are now see the need for it can be some really big proponents of this. I mean, they can be your best cheerleader. Don't call them a cheerleader because they probably wouldn't like that, right? But they can be your best spokesperson for that when they...

Kara (39:06.74)
Exactly.

Kara (39:22.23)
Yes, absolutely.

Kara (39:32.462)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (39:33.09)
They're like, man, I wish I had this and I didn't. And this is why. So it is, so just wanna make sure I plug that in there. So it's not, not everybody's retired on duty and cynical and shut down and jaded in a dinosaur.

Kara (39:49.302)
you know it's not always necessarily those people that are 15 20 plus years you have some three four year young guy like really young physically young mentally guys who are also you know very anti the mental wellness aspect of it because you know they've also you know and likely it's that they've grown up through a childhood of having that you know we don't show emotion stuff so it's on both ends of the spectrum, you know, you have some hard ones that you have to break.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (40:25.342)
Yes, absolutely. And it's not just your old male cops either. It's also, it's across the board. It's everybody. It's really up to the individual. So how much, as we kind of start to kind of wrap things up, how much has your faith in God played a part in where you are now and in your career?

Kara (40:34.07)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Kara Clark (40:53.299)
Well, it plays all the part. Um, you know.

I've been through things in life, everybody's been through things in life, you know. And for me, a lot of what has gotten me through things in life is my faith in God and my realization that despite what I've gone through, despite the valleys and the traumatic times and things that He's let me walk through, it's all been for a purpose. There's purpose in the pain is what I like to say.

There's a reason for everything and a lot of what I've gone through in my life has really prepared me for the cop that I am and how I am and stuff. So, you know, I just... And everybody's not, you know, real big into faith or into Christianity or whatever. But I think that everybody needs to have something. You know, I obviously believe it should be Jesus Christ, but...

Dr. Vernon Phillips (41:53.73)
Oh, absolutely.

Kara (41:53.942)
That's not everybody's thing. But he definitely, you know, I wouldn't be where I am right now if he had not opened and closed certain doors in my life.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (42:06.25)
Wow, that's awesome. I appreciate you sharing that. And kind of, I'm going to, I'm going to shoot you one last question and, uh, it's going to be, you know, kind of just to add in there, but, you know, we talked a lot about mental health. We talked a lot about the stigma. Um, you know, we didn't really touch a lot on the current, you know, issue of suicide and law enforcement or just in the first responder community in general. Um, but obviously we know what's there. We see the numbers every year that come out and then they still are elevated numbers, right? I have my own personal beliefs of why they stay elevated. That's because one, the person feels like they're all alone and that they're the only one dealing with it because of the stigma, right? Because we don't talk about it. So they get to this point where they feel like they are the only one. I'm the only one dealing with this. And number two is the devil's a liar and he will absolutely capitalize on your despair, your hopelessness. And so those are kind of my two

Kara (42:35.406)
Mm-hmm.

Kara (42:45.483)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (43:05.61)
personal, you know beliefs as far as that but if there was somebody, you know, who's Who's just going through a crisis in there, you know, maybe they've been having thoughts of suicide or taking their life What would you say to somebody in that situation?

Kara (43:21.474)
Definitely find that person. Everybody should have that person that they should reach out to. And you know, you said hopelessness, and I think that's really a big thing that is kind of the tipping edge for someone who is thinking about committing suicide because they feel like there's nothing left, right? They feel like this is, it's easier for everybody in my life if I'm not here, and it's just, I don't have any other options.

And you know, it's easy for us to say, hey, you do have options, you know, you don't give up, hang on and stuff like that. But if we're not really out there practicing what we preach and being there for these people, then it's really hard for us to just say, hey, do this, if we're not gonna say, I'm here for you while you do this. And I would tell anybody, I am, I don't care if you're on the other side of the world, I'm 100% available for anybody who is there at that point, because, you know, once in my life I was there, pre-law enforcement, but, you know, and I have friends who have experienced suicide. It's a hard thing and it really impacts a lot more. And I think a lot of people, you know, they realize it will hurt, but they don't think it hurts the people for a long time.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (44:48.51)
Yeah, a lot of times, you know, in that state, in that state of crisis for them, right, that's the most logical decision that they've come to, right? This is the most logical conclusion. Now for us on the outside looking in, we're like, that's not logical, but they're also dealing with something that is so intense, right? So unbearable that they just want it to stop. So I think sometimes we got to step back and say, look.

Kara (44:58.455)
Yes.

Kara (45:10.446)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (45:19.838)
We need to be available and we also need to know how to respond and to interact with somebody appropriately, right? But also with some competence and just knowing how to deal with them and talk to them. Because you know, sometimes somebody might just come and be like, well that's stupid. Why would you even think about that? It's because you're, see that's why I'm not going to say anything, right? Because you're going to respond that way. So

Kara (45:23.916)
Yes.

Kara (45:41.747)
That's, and that's why...

Kara (45:46.728)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (45:49.715)
It's a.

Kara (45:50.046)
That's why I think suicide awareness training in law enforcement is super important because if you are not that person that someone can come to, you need to be cognizant enough to say let me get you somebody and then get them somebody.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (45:52.587)
Yes.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (46:05.298)
Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. So, well, if somebody does, you know, want to, want to reach out to you, are you, you know, are you have, you know, your LinkedIn or anything that you wouldn't want to share with anybody or

Kara (46:21.03)
Yeah, I don't know the actual LinkedIn address right now, but, um, Oh yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (46:25.194)
Well, I can put that in the show notes if you're good with that. That way if you have somebody wants to kind of talk to you, if something that you know, we've talked about, they're like, Oh man, I'd really like to, to talk to her and you know, pick her brain on this. So.

Kara (46:37.91)
And I have an email address that you can add also that they can reach me on.

Dr. Vernon Phillips (46:41.458)
Okay, all right, so I'll throw all that in, but I appreciate you coming out, I appreciate you taking the time. I feel like we've covered a lot of things, we had some good conversations, so I appreciate it, thank you so much. Yeah, all right, thank you.

Kara (46:52.002)
Thanks for having me. This is great. Thanks.