Leaders in Law Enforcement-Chief Deputy Matthew Thomas

In this episode, Chief Deputy Matthew Thomas, a law enforcement officer with over 31 years of experience, shares insights into his career and how he maintained his physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual well-being. Thomas highlights the need for balance in all aspects of life and the impact of physical fitness on longevity in the profession. He also discusses the taboo nature of mental health in law enforcement and the importance of seeking support and counseling. Thomas shares his personal journey of rediscovering his faith and how it brought balance and calmness to his life. He also discusses the role of faith in his life and how it has helped him navigate challenges and find meaning in his career.

Takeaways

• Physical fitness is crucial for longevity in law enforcement.
• Mental health should not be taboo and seeking support is important.
• Rediscovering faith can bring balance and calmness to life.
• Maintaining relationships outside of the profession is essential.
• Seeking counseling and support is essential for processing traumatic experiences and maintaining mental well-being.
• Leaders in law enforcement have a responsibility to be vulnerable and share their experiences to support and guide their staff.
• Faith can play a significant role in providing strength, guidance, and a sense of purpose in a law enforcement career.

Contact with Matthew Thomas: 
@deputy_onetime

Book: Interceptors
Onetimenation

Transcript

Critical Aspects Podcast (00:00.558)

All right, welcome back to Critical Aspects of Law Enforcement. I'm your host, Vernon Phillips. And today on the show, we got a special guest. got Matthew Thomas. And what I'm going to do is I'm just going to give it over to him. I'm going let him just tell you about himself, his background, what he's doing, where he's at right now in his career. And then we'll jump into it. Matthew, I appreciate you coming on.

Matthew Thomas (00:20.485)

Thanks for having me. Good to be here.

Critical Aspects Podcast (00:24.07)

So just go ahead and give us a little background on who you are and how long you've been in law enforcement and things like

Matthew Thomas (00:31.985)

All right, I've been in just over 31 years, hit 31 in April, and been with the Pinal County Sheriff's Office here in Arizona the entire time. Started off in detention and I was in detention for just about a year, just right under a year. And then went out to the road as a deputy and kind of worked my way through the ranks as a deputy. I worked in traffic. I went into detectives. I worked undercover as a detective and promoted from there to sergeant and did patrol again, did training, ran our academy, went back to undercover as a sergeant and also did motors and traffic as a sergeant and then promoted to lieutenant and as a lieutenant I was in that entire time collateral duty I was a SWAT guy so I was on our SWAT team starting in 97 and was on it that entire time. And then when I got promoted to Sergeant, I became a TL on the SWAT team, a team leader. And then in 2010, promoted to Lieutenant and took command of the team. So I became the SWAT team commander. And then I also had undercover and our anti -swuggling squad. Worked that for a few years and went back to patrol for a short stint as a patrol Lieutenant over one of our regions and then went back to SWAT, smuggling and narcotics. And then in 2016, Sheriff Mark Lamb became the elected sheriff and he asked me to bump up to be his XO, second in command. And I took that job. So in 2017, I moved from lieutenant into the chief deputy position as his second in command and been there since.

Critical Aspects Podcast (02:19.356)

Well, so you got a lot there. mean, obviously you said 31 years,

Critical Aspects Podcast (02:27.836)

She says you're going into 31 years of, this is your 31st year of law enforcement.

Matthew Thomas (02:33.573)

Yes, sir.

Critical Aspects Podcast (02:35.366)

So there's a lot there. I you've kind of been all over in your career. You've worked just a little bit of everything.

Matthew Thomas (02:43.609)

Yeah, I don't know if you can tell, but I have ADHD, man. I gotta bounce around a lot.

Critical Aspects Podcast (02:49.814)

That's all right. So I want to kind of unpack some of that. But so you said you spent a year working detention, working the jail. So what are your thoughts on that? What are your thoughts on new recruits, new hires coming in and working a year or two in detention and then moving on from

Matthew Thomas (03:01.103)

Yes. Great.

Matthew Thomas (03:16.921)

I've always been a believer in it. I think it gives you some great experience and it lets you see a side of the sheriff's office that you normally wouldn't see if you go straight from the street or straight from a civilian into the street and being a deputy. So good experience and I would say even more so in today's world because social skills are not, you know, they're just not as good as they used to be. Talking face to face. Working through conflict face to face that type of stuff isn't is not What it used to be so I think these days it's a great starting point and we have like at the sheriff's office we allow 19 and older to start at the jail So a 19 year old on the street, I think is a little too young but 19 year old in the jail more of a controlled environment and they kind of learn how to deal with people, learn how to deal with conflict. I think it's a good, and it makes a more well -rounded deputy. And even if they don't stay with the Sheriff's Office and they go on to work at another agency, like a city agency or state agency, I think that always, that time in the jail will always help

Critical Aspects Podcast (04:33.84)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's a great way for people to learn that interpersonal skills that maybe they're lacking when they first get into the profession. Because if you go right to the road, not to say you don't have that, you know, just innate ability to speak to people, but it's different when you're inside the detention facility. And that's one of your first things is deescalating, just talking to somebody, you know, kind of going back to the old verbal

Matthew Thomas (04:55.568)

Yep.

Critical Aspects Podcast (05:03.354)

So yeah, there's a, think, I also think that's a great place to start. I mean, there's a lot of agencies that do that. But so as we kind of look at your career, sorry, go ahead.

Matthew Thomas (05:12.187)

Well, I think to it, I was going to say, think too, that it gives them a little bit more street cred when they do hit the street, because you're dealing, you're dealing with the same people that you're going to deal with on the outside, right? They tend to come in and go out, come in and go out. And so you get to know those people, you get to know the gangs, you get to know who's friendly with who, who's not friendly. You get to know kind of their backstories, their families. And so you get a pretty, good depth of knowledge about the people you're going to be dealing with on the street. And then it kind of forms their opinion of you too. So you start your reputation in that jail and that can carry over to the street. If you're in the jail and you're a firm, fair person, that's going to carry over to the street and it's going to give you a little bit of street cred and respect when you get out there.

Critical Aspects Podcast (06:03.504)

Yeah, and that's a difficult job. I don't think a lot of people really realize how difficult it is working with inside a detention facility. That's kind of mostly my background. That's where I started. And you have to be able to go in and you have to be able to present yourself in a way that you're put together, right? They're not gonna automatically pick you and say, right, ook at this guy here. He's a schmo. He's not put together. even if you're starting out and you're brand new, you can go in there. If you're put together and you just maintain a good command presence, you can do a lot just by the way you interact, the way you talk to people. But my thing is if you're always firm, fair, and consistent, most of the time, you're not going to have any issues. You're always going to have those knuckleheads. You're always going have those guys that are going to try and push the envelope until

Matthew Thomas (06:54.651)

Right.

Matthew Thomas (06:58.13)

yeah.

Critical Aspects Podcast (07:00.022)

They'll take it just as far as they think they can, right? Just to get you to do something. I think it gives you the ability to kind of read situations and then be able to deescalate just based off of having a conversation. But like you said, it also gives you the ability to learn the people you're going to deal with on a regular basis. And you may not be that individual, but it's probably going to be somebody in their family or somebody they know or somebody in their circle because

Matthew Thomas (07:20.453)

Right.

Critical Aspects Podcast (07:28.06)

You know as well as I do there's it's it's always kind of the same group. It's always kind of the same family It's always kind of you know those same individuals to just keep coming back around and around so So yeah, so it's a I mean I think it's a it's a great place to start It's a great place to even do your entire career if that's what you decide There's a lot

Matthew Thomas (07:38.96)

Yeah.

Matthew Thomas (07:47.491)

Mm -hmm. we have plenty of people that have made that their career.

Critical Aspects Podcast (07:53.355)

Yeah. So there's some people that are like, no, I don't want to, I don't want to go to the street. I don't want to do the road. I'd rather stay here. You know, I kind of found my niche here, but so I mean, looking at your career, I mean, you've done a lot of stuff. You've kind of been, been all, all over, you know, the circuit there. So when you look back and you look at your, you know, 31 plus, how did you maintain just your overall physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual wellbeing? What was it? What is, what is it? What do you do on a regular basis to kind of keep all of that in check?

Matthew Thomas (08:24.399)

Well, I don't know that you do keep it all in check all the time, right? I think we falter quite a bit because we're human beings. And I can tell you, like my spiritual well -being got off track for a number of years because I got away from church. And I think that had a direct effect on everything else. But as I went along, physical fitness has always been important to me. I felt that it was my duty to stay fit. I know that bad guys train and I know there are people out there that keep themselves ready to kill us and so I wanted to stay ahead of that curve obviously and then I knew early on in this career what this career does to you because our statistic here is five years that five to six years after your retirement is when statistically you're gonna die and so that number has always been a kick to the gut, right? And I joke now that I'm at the end of my career, but I'm afraid to retire because I don't want to die. And you know, have to, so you have to stay physically fit because heart is one of the things that gets us right. Heart attacks is one of killers of cops. And so you have to keep those arteries clear. You have to keep that blood pumping. You have to stay in good shape. And then I also know just from my own experience that this job and what it does to you the cortisol dumps the adrenaline dumps That has a physiological effect on your body that you cannot stop and the lack of sleep as well plays into it and as you get on in age and tenure on the job you find out that like diabetes and high blood pressure two things that hit almost all of us. And it's because of that cortisol, that lack of sleep, that insulin resistance. So trying to stay ahead of all that, I felt it was important to constantly work out. So the gym was one of my sanctuaries, whether it be going in lifting weights or whether it's out running. I hate running while I'm doing it, but I love running while I'm doing it, if that makes sense, because it's a good escape. It's a good time to think.

Matthew Thomas (10:44.623)

seem to have a clear head and then when I'm done I really feel good but at the same time I hate running. But nonetheless that was my go -to was the gym for that stuff and then you know as far as mental health I would say the better part of my career probably two thirds my career that was taboo man it really was in this profession and you didn't talk about it you just suck it up and you push forward you compartmentalize as much stuff as you can and you figure out as you go along that that doesn't work because as you compartmentalize and you stuff things in a closet, closet tends to get full and the weird thing is that door pops open at the most inopportune times and stuff comes flying out and so you know as I moved into this role actually was the first time that I ever went to a counselor and started you know regularly seeing a counselor and working out a lot of this stuff because I've seen a lot of death over my career I've been involved in a lot of critical incidents and Whether you understand it or not that stuff really wears on you and some of it Invisibly wears on you like you just you don't even know that it's wearing on you until it's almost too late And then I'll go back to spiritual, you know, I when I got back to church and got back to my faith that filled a lot of gaps for me and that helped with the overall resiliency with my physical well -being, with my mental well -being. helped with a lot of that stuff.

Matthew Thomas (12:44.401)

I lose you.

Critical Aspects Podcast (12:46.652)

Still there? All right, there you go. Yeah, I think we got a storm going over right now, so I think it's messing up the internet, so everything's kinda getting frozen. So I can go through and I'll clean some of this up where we get a couple of spots where it gets a little jumbled. But to kinda jump back onto what you were saying, mean, those are all important aspects

Matthew Thomas (12:48.129)

yeah, I got you.

Matthew Thomas (12:54.838)

gotcha.

Do it.

Matthew Thomas (13:11.129)

Yeah, yeah, no

Critical Aspects Podcast (13:16.412)

to jump into and make sure that we're taking care of ourselves in every aspect there because that's who you are, right? That's your wellbeing. That is what keeps you in the fight. That's what gives you the ability to not only survive your career, but also thrive in your career, right? And so I'm glad you hit on every single one of those and we could kind of just stop and spend.

Matthew Thomas (13:37.253)

Yeah, absolutely.

Critical Aspects Podcast (13:46.106)

our entire time on every single aspect there. But just looking back, mean, you said yourself that the mental aspect was taboo, right? For majority of your career, it's been taboo to not talk about your mental health. And just like you said, just because you put it away, you stuff it, doesn't mean that that closet door is not gonna fly open. And the problem when that happens is when that flies open, you're not just dealing with one thing. You're dealing with everything that you've stuffed in there. That's now coming at you at once. So it doesn't give you. So yeah, you might be like, I'm just going to put it away. It's so much better if you deal with each thing as it comes, process it, work through it, because it's a lot easier to deal with it one on one than everything at once. And and I'm glad that, you know, that you talked about. Yeah, go

Matthew Thomas (14:18.435)

yeah.

Matthew Thomas (14:34.693)

Okay.

And that's kind of...

I was going say that's kind of the model that, you know, now being in a position where I'm a decision maker, that's the model that we've moved to that when we have critical incidents that it's dealt with right then. That's when they see the counselor. As soon as we have that critical incident, our peer support and our critical incident team kind of step in place and they start setting things up. So they set up the counselor visits, sometimes mandated, sometimes not. And they get them started down that road because that is absolutely correct. If you deal with them one at a time, because I don't my people to have to stack that stuff. want them because I know from my own experience, when you stack that stuff, your family pays for it too. you know, we want to, our kind of the sheriff and I, our motto has been, we want to return our people to their family better than when we got them, not worse than we got them. And to do that, you know, you have to address these kinds of things and you have to hit it head on and be proactive.

And this is one of the big areas right now in policing that they're understanding. It affects everything, man. It affects your family life. It affects your professional life, how well you perform. And so, you know, if I'm, if I have an all -star team, there's no way that I want to shortcut that team by giving them anything less than the best so that they can keep being all -stars.

Critical Aspects Podcast (16:03.1)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you even hit on the spiritual aspect. for yourself, did you notice a big difference when you were investing in that portion of your life and when you

Matthew Thomas (16:19.725)

Absolutely, huge difference. when I got away from religion, it was because of the career. So I became disenchanted with the religious Institute. And, you know, you start questioning God really in this, you know, the things you see and the things that you have to deal with in this job make you question if there really is a God, right? And you question that a lot. And so that kind of pushed me away from church.

Like I said that and the institution of church itself because again in this job we deal with politics, right? And then if you have a religion where you see that you're you're really disenchanted with it because you're like I don't want this crap, know I get it at work. I get it on the street. I don't want it in my faith as well So anyways, I got pushed away. I pushed myself away from my faith and then that was probably It's probably a good 15 years maybe a little bit less that I was away from my faith. And when I got back to it, it was really like a breath of fresh air. it, like I said, it filled a lot of gaps for me and it brought a calmness to my life and to me personally. And so it had a calming effect because I think you feel like you're constantly looking for something.

You don't know what that is. And we fill it in with bad things. We fill it in with alcohol. We fill it in with porn. It's just all this bad stuff, And when you fill it with the right stuff, I think that brings you balance as a human being. And so that's what I really notice is more balance in my life, better relationships, better ability to deal with people because I'm looking at them from a different aspect. Because this job can harden your heart quite a bit as well and you start seeing everybody as the enemy and that's absolutely not the case but it can happen and my faith helped me you know pull out of that as

Critical Aspects Podcast (18:26.8)

Yeah, and think that's where a lot of law enforcement are at or have been at at some point in their career is because of the things that you see and the interactions you have, but it gets you to that point where you kind of, I you go one of two ways. either kind of, you're all in, right? Where you're just diving into just all types of religion, trying to make sense of the things you see

Matthew Thomas (18:48.953)

Great.

Critical Aspects Podcast (18:54.672)

You're completely out. You you just cut yourself out altogether and you're like, no. you know, so it's like you either over associate or you disassociate. but you know, the way I look at it is I don't know how you can do this career and not have, you know, a good faith aspect and, know, kind of be grounded in your faith. think it's, and it's statistically proven that, you know, people with faith are generally more resilient than people who are not.

And I think that kind of goes back to this idea of biblical resilience that I kind of put together, which is, you where you're internally focused and what are you internally focused on? Well, your relationship with God, right? And that gives you the ability to be purpose driven and your purpose driven is to essentially to what? To live your life for Him and to glorify Him. And when you do that, it gives you the ability to face adversity. But it doesn't mean that it's going to be easy.

Matthew Thomas (19:50.374)

Right.

Critical Aspects Podcast (19:52.806)

It doesn't mean that you're not going to face adversity, but it gives you that ability to endure. gives you that capacity, you know, to endure that and get through on the other side to where if you don't have that, you know, you're, you're missing that key component, key component. mean, you in the law enforcement community, we're always talking about what being physically fit and now it's, it's regularly, you know, we're talking about it more often about being, you know, mentally fit,

Matthew Thomas (20:15.834)

Yeah.

Critical Aspects Podcast (20:22.202)

I think now we're kind of losing the spoke of being spiritually fit as well. There's that shift, so we're talking more about the mental impact, but I think we're losing some of how that also impacts you on a spiritual level. So I think

Matthew Thomas (20:39.781)

Yeah, I agree. And I think that when you talk about law enforcement now, that we have to, you can't focus on any one of those things like you're saying. You have to speak to resiliency as a whole, right? And you have to have a holistic approach with it, which includes spiritual, mental, physical, it's all of that stuff, right? And if you don't, and again, it goes back to being balanced. If you're not balanced, if you're tipping the scales in one of those areas then you're going to be out of kilter a little bit and you're going to feel it. You're going to feel it emotionally or physically or mentally. So I think when you have that imbalance, that's where you're just, you're firing on all cylinders. And honestly, that's, that's the best cops because they're, they're grounded. make solid decisions. They have a level head, but you know, all the stuff that you want them to

Critical Aspects Podcast (21:34.108)

yeah. So, know, what, what, what's some advice that you would give to, you know, a recruit just coming into the profession? So somebody who's just getting ready to start their career, you know, you kind of looking back over your career, what, what is, you know, the main thing that you would, that you would tell them or encourage them to do, or maybe even not to

Matthew Thomas (21:57.07)

Not to do is well there when I was when I was introduced to the profession You know, I got my my first talking to by my bosses. I got hired at that time he said watch out for the three B's and that translated to women bills and alcohol and so those three things tend to get us in trouble and again if you if you look at your resiliency That's it points directly at that right because we voids with the alcohol the women and then we get our bills out of whack and you you know, you're Spending more than you earn and you're working all this overtime and you're you're not getting any downtime And so I would say as they get into this career Just Understand that you're no matter what anybody tells you you're about to start experiencing something that just can't be described. I can't tell you what it's like to pick up a dead baby. You have to experience that and each one of us handles that differently, right? And we each process that differently. So I think the advice I would give to young cops or people just getting into this field is that you have to be ready for the ride of your life and you have to understand that you are gonna be physically and mentally and emotionally challenged almost every day that you do this and it's going to be in different ways. You know, like I said, one day you may be picking up a dead baby. The next day you may be in a fight for your life with a three time convicted felon. And so it's all over the place. so listen to the cops that have been through it. That's, know, as you go through the academy, you're going to get all this input and you're to have a bunch of different cops with different, different experiences pouring into you. And then as you go out on FTO, same thing just take all of that in. And I would say the other thing is understand that we are all human beings because I think that's a trap that we can fall into in our profession. And I know from talking to my military buddies, they fall into it as well. You get into this job and you just are constantly dealing with 5 % of the population and it's almost 100 % of the time.

Matthew Thomas (24:16.109)

And so what ends up happening is you get this very my optic view and you start to think that a hundred percent of the population are these assholes basically that you've been dealing with. Right. And so you have to make sure that, that you have friends. And I know this is talked about quite a bit. You have friends outside of this profession, right? You have relationships outside of this profession that you don't get yourself in this echo chamber where you view it as just the people in uniform are the people I can trust or that are my friends and everybody else is an enemy because that's problematic.

Critical Aspects Podcast (24:57.936)

Yeah, and think that's sound advice for not only just anybody coming in, but anybody in the career in

You know, and being able to distinguish between the two, right? Between that 5 % and then everybody else on a regular basis is important. And so what would you tell those guys that are, you know, 25, 30 years getting ready to retire?

Matthew Thomas (25:18.864)

Yeah, absolutely.

Matthew Thomas (25:28.305)

Man, I don't know what I would tell them because I'm the same boat, you know, and I'm trying to figure it out. It's It's weird because it goes fast and I know everybody says that but it really really does like I look back at my career on my holy cow 31 years go by already. It doesn't feel like that and then you find yourself at the end of this career and Whether you like it or not. It becomes a part of who you are, right? It becomes part of your identity and so as you spin down and you get towards the end of that, you start realizing that you're about to lose an identity. You're about to lose a piece of who you are as you exit that field. And I've watched friends do it. And the weird thing for me is there's guys that I have taught in the academy that are retiring before me, which is just awkward. But as that happens, what I know, and it's not that it's a lack of caring of me. I care about my people, I care about my agency, the sheriff cares the same. But the truth is, when you say, hey, I'm retired and you leave that building for the last time, your card gets deactivated, you're no longer welcome in that building, you're welcome as a citizen, but you don't get the same rights to enter that building. And people may miss you for a week or two and talk about the good old days or whatever but the machine just keeps on going and it pushes forward and pretty soon you're a has -been and you you're just talking about what we used to do and that's all kind of scary man to be honest with you because you know it's it's what I've done for the last three decades and you don't know what the next chapter looks like and so I think if you don't have a balanced life that that can be a very abrupt stop.

And I think that's where you see guys, you know, that's where you see the suicide stuff pop in because guys just lose their identity and they don't have a purpose anymore. So you've got to make sure as you approach the end of your career that you're not all in on just that career. You've got to have other purpose in life and you've got to have, you've got to really broaden those horizons so that you function after this career.

Critical Aspects Podcast (27:47.494)

Yeah, that's something that I often tell or teach individuals like, hey, you've got to have a purpose outside of the career, right? know, having the career, that being your calling, that being your purpose, that's great, but you've got to have something else outside of that because when that's gone, right, just like you described, mean, that's gone, right? You retire and sometimes even before you retire, they've already filled your position with the next qualified person, right? You leave as a sergeant, they're bringing somebody up into that sergeant spot. You leave as a captain, they're promoting somebody into that captain spot. You leave as the next in line, the chief deputy, somebody's gonna come into that chief deputy spot. And if you've been in that position, when you leave and you step out, and you're no longer...

Matthew Thomas (28:28.773)

Right.

Matthew Thomas (28:37.093)

Right.

Critical Aspects Podcast (28:47.034)

you know, kind of second man or even number one man, you know, overseeing, you know, maybe a couple hundred, maybe a couple thousand people. And now it's just, you know, you're at home and it's just, you know, you and your significant other. Yeah, it's just you. So that's why I'm always like, hey, you've got to have something else. You got to, you know, be doing something else other than just the profession, because that's what helps you survive, right? Your career, because like you talked about earlier,

Matthew Thomas (28:59.436)

You're in charge of you.

Critical Aspects Podcast (29:16.413)

I think the average lifespan for a citizen is 79 years of age, and the average lifespan of law enforcement, I think, is right around 59 years of age. So if you're kind of doing the math, like you said, within that first five years, that's where, it's either because of physical complications, because maybe you haven't taken good care of yourself, and you have a massive heart attack, or maybe it's because you can't deal with the loss of your purpose.

Matthew Thomas (29:26.479)

Right.

Critical Aspects Podcast (29:46.448)

And some of those are self -inflicted. that's what we don't want to happen, right? That's that one thing we do want to shift. And we don't want that to be continued the way it has been the last several years. yeah, mean, definitely investing in something outside of the career to help curb that. But keeping that balance, like you said, is crucial to when you do get to that point where you're like, hey, I'm getting ready to retire. What's my next step? What's my next? You can just kind of step right into the next thing and continue on with what your purpose is and who you are. then I go back to my faith and it's like, well, I know what my purpose is. My purpose is the same whatever career I'm currently in or whatever role I fill. And so I think that's another key aspect that you want to plug in there. But as we kind of continue on our conversation, you look over your career what is, if you want to share, but what is one of the most significant calls that you had to walk through and then what did you do to kind of get yourself on the other side of that? If that makes

Matthew Thomas (30:59.049)

man, yeah, yeah it does. There's been a few of them. I mean, one of the, I can tell you, know, one of the ones that was counseling sessions was my buddy Tate who I honored, you know, Tate was on the SWAT team with me and we were doing, we were training and he fell on a rappel and was killed and

that was a tough loss, you know, it was a tough loss for our SWAT team because he was just a good dude. It was a tough loss for the agency and the profession. And then personally, you know, because I witnessed it. And so being right there and, you know, being the first one to him after that took place was tough, right? Because you have all these things running through your mind of...you know, if I would have done this or if I could have done that, you know, and you have that survivor's guilt, the what ifs are rolling through your mind. So it's just a lot to process. And so that was one of the tougher ones. you know, that one, that one jacked me up for quite a while. And that was one that I probably should have sought out counseling a lot sooner than I did not, you know, well, years later ish.

And it almost cost me my marriage, my family. And I was living dangerously. I was never suicidal, but I didn't care if I died, if that makes sense. I didn't mind doing the most dangerous stuff I could find. I was constantly looking for anything that I could find that could possibly kill me. And, you know, looking back at it, it was a lot of emotional damage, you know, it a lot of stuff I didn't process. so that was probably the toughest one of my career. I've had a few that were close to that, but that was probably the toughest one. And I mean, it still sits with me today. You know, I've worked through it a lot and...

Matthew Thomas (33:19.291)

You know, the counseling has helped tremendously because I used to be an emotional wreck around that subject matter. I just couldn't talk about it. Couldn't tell the story, couldn't talk about Tate, couldn't do any of that stuff. And, you know, I've been able to work through a lot of that stuff and get to a better place. And again, faith was one of the big things that helped with all of that because it gives you a different understanding of the world.

Critical Aspects Podcast (33:47.76)

Yeah, yeah, that sounds like that was probably a really significant moment for you and just kind of walking through that. But when you kind of look back on it and you said that you eventually sought out counseling and things like that, but talking about it, does that kind of help with just kind of processing the whole thing?

Is that something you would encourage other people that may have experienced something similar to what you just shared? Obviously, yeah, going and seeking out and talking to somebody and going to a counselor, but that's probably something you would encourage them to

Matthew Thomas (34:28.399)

Yeah, I would say that, for sure, yeah, the counseling is a must. mean, that's obviously, you got to talk to a professional. And the problem in our profession, much like the veterans, right? don't, if I'm talking to a counselor that has no law enforcement experience or doesn't deal with law enforcement, I really don't have time for them because they have no understanding of what I'm talking about. And so you've got to find the right counselor.

They've got to have some law enforcement experience because that matters. And in addition to that, you know, your peer support groups, if your agency has those, those are good because there's generally speaking, there's somebody in that group that has had something similar. And so you can always find a commonality in what you're going through and what other people have gone through. And a lot of those peer support groups are comprised of people that have gone through and are trying to make it better for others. So peer support is another huge thing to keep stability. But absolutely, have to, you can try and bottle it up, but it's gonna show its head at the most inopportune time. And so much better to tackle it head on. And like I said, I am very fortunate that I have a very patient and loving wife because she put up with a lot of what I was going through and you become hardened, mean, hateful sometimes and it's not who you are, who you want to be or who you're trying to be. It's just all that stuff working against you and if you don't work to correct it, it starts winning. So, you know, make sure that you have those outlets.

Critical Aspects Podcast (36:20.72)

Yeah, and that's important, but I think something that's even more important is, you are at your agency, you are number two, right? You're the number two guy and you're on here and you're saying, hey, look, you've got to go and talk to somebody. You've got to go and talk to a professional. You've got to go and talk to a counselor. And it doesn't just, it's not just any counselor. You need to go and find one that is culturally competent with law enforcement, right? With the understanding of who they're dealing with and why that's so important. So, and I think that's something that's really, really crucial to point out is that, you know, there are administrations out there that do have, you know, their people's best interests in mind. And they say, Hey, look, if you've got something that's bothering you, if you've got a certain call, or if there's something that's transpired in your career that, you know, is really kind of sticking with you, you need to go and talk to somebody.

It's not just you saying it but you know, you're like I've done it and I think that that's that's the big thing That's that's where that you know that transition comes in is it's not just saying okay. Hey, here's the resource Go use it as saying like here. Here's a resource use it because I've used it And I think that that sets a really good precedent a really good example with you know, we're just the overall culture like hey Okay, if we've

Matthew Thomas (37:24.045)

Right, yeah.

Matthew Thomas (37:38.927)

Yeah.

Critical Aspects Podcast (37:48.294)

you know, high level administrators talking about this, utilizing this, then it must be okay for me to also talk about this and utilize this resource. So I think that's, I think that's huge. And, and, you know, I give you kudos on that. and I think that's a, I think that's an awesome thing that you're doing and just being willing to even, to even share that and put that out there. But I think that is huge. I think that it has a huge impact. you know, just not only with your individuals that are under you, but

Matthew Thomas (38:05.499)

Thank you.

Critical Aspects Podcast (38:17.764)

other law enforcement that see that.

Matthew Thomas (38:21.295)

Yeah, for sure. And I think it's important.

Sorry, I think it's important that if you're in a leadership position, it's almost your, it's not almost, it is your responsibility. Your responsibility to do just that. It's your responsibility to be vulnerable. It's your responsibility to talk to your staff about it falls that you've experienced that you don't want them to experience. And, you know, I, talked to my executive staff about this all the time, that the higher you promote, the less it is about you and the more it is about others. And so you have to live by that as you move up into leadership roles. You have to understand that you are giving up yourself the higher you promote and you're taking care of others. And that is part of it. You've got to let them know that, hey, I'm not just preaching this. Like I've been through it and I don't want you guys to have, it's almost like your kids, right? You're trying to make it better for them. You don't want them to go through the same struggles that you went through want them to have it easier and then you want them to learn from the mistakes of the past and be better.

Critical Aspects Podcast (39:29.894)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's great leadership mindset and leadership strategy. So kind of come out of that and segue out of that and kind of bring a little bit more light to the conversation. is one of the most awkward calls that you've had or funniest calls you can remember? It probably involves wrestling some naked person somewhere, right?

Matthew Thomas (39:45.913)

Hahaha.

Matthew Thomas (39:53.669)

man, awkward was.

Matthew Thomas (39:59.514)

No, no, luckily it does not. It does involve Naked, but I wasn't wrestling them. I think one of the most awkward that I can, the first one that pops into my mind is we got a call of a DV, me and a partner, we're graveyards. And back then, this area was pretty, there was two of us on, so it was pretty, you know, just not a lot of cops on, we're county cops, so we're used to doing it by ourselves.

So me and another guy get called to this domestic violence in progress at an apartment complex and they're saying, you know, they're fighting in this apartment, blah, blah, blah. So we roll up and, you know, we kind of roll in blacked out and silent and we get out and we, sure enough, we can hear what sounds like fighting. And so we go up to the door and man, it's, they're getting after it in there. And so we knock and...

Guy answers the door and he's very scantily clad in leather, pieces of leather. And he answers the door very surprised and behind him in this contraption is a naked lady. we said, you know, we got a call of a fight here. And it wasn't a fight. They were actually in love.

And so they were just enjoying themselves very loudly and they had all these, you know, leather toys and tools and all this stuff going on. And it was a little bit of an awkward conversation at the door. And then we just kind of were like, well, all right then, yeah, bye. And so we left and it was just one of those things that you're like, did that really just happen?

Critical Aspects Podcast (41:45.638)

Yeah.

Critical Aspects Podcast (41:55.418)

Is it, yeah, is that really what we just, man, were going a whole different way when we knocked on that door. You we thought somebody was going to jail, but apparently they're playing jail. that's pretty funny. So, as we kind of continue on, mean, that's a pretty funny story. And at what point in your career was that? How long had you been on the

Matthew Thomas (42:06.115)

did I freeze up?

Matthew Thomas (42:22.701)

Man I was only I was a couple year cop then so it was one of those like What the hell and did the guy that I was with was a little more experienced? so he wasn't as affected by what I was like Because I'm trying to process what's going on, right? You're trying to process like Kim here for a fight. They're not fighting. What is going? that's what's going on. What how is she even in that thing that way

Like, what are they doing? What are you? Then you look at the guy and like, what are you guys doing to each other? Is everybody okay? And then she's guaranteeing us that she's okay. She's very embarrassed. And so you can imagine, I mean, it's like your mom walking in on you if you're naked with your girlfriend, right? The cops just walked in on two people going at it and they're both embarrassed and they're embarrassed that the neighbors called and thought it was a fight. They're embarrassed that we're standing in their doorway.

Critical Aspects Podcast (43:01.599)

yeah.

Matthew Thomas (43:16.719)

I'm just trying to figure out what is actually going on in there. And then we leave and you're just like, what the hell? I remember thinking like, where did they even buy that kind of stuff? Where did they get that? So it was funny and it was odd.

Critical Aspects Podcast (43:37.5)

Yeah, I mean that's probably the first that's the first story like that that I've that I've ever heard so that's That is pretty funny But so you kind of where you're at now You know you've got you know got a pretty good you know presence on social media and You you're constantly posting stuff. You know regularly And so so how are you using that for you know just to you the next generation. you know, I know that you do a lot, you're talking a lot and you're, you're, giving a lot of information suggestions there. So kind of how did that start and, and, and where do think that's going to

Matthew Thomas (44:22.841)

man, well it started with the sheriff. The sheriff and I were talking a few years back, I know, it's been about five, six years ago. And obviously our sheriff is Mark Lamb. If you don't know who he is, big cowboy hat, big smile, on national news a lot, has a big social media presence. Our agency has a big social media presence.

And a few years back as he was ramping up his social media, because he's always been a very good brander, right? And he let me know when I took this position that that was his goal. He was setting up a specific brand for himself, the agency. And so as we move forward, he said, know, because we had talked about just different stories, different subject matters and I was flirting he had written a book and I was flirting with writing a book and so we were talking about a lot of that stuff and he says well as you move forward you really need to make your social media public and so for you know like an old school cop I'm like no way man because you know yeah that was taboo no social media and you get you got to stay private so they don't know who you are and all the stuff so he convinced me otherwise he's like no

Critical Aspects Podcast (45:28.986)

Yeah, that's not happening.

Matthew Thomas (45:42.735)

don't understand its marketing platform and he kind of explained it all to me and I was like okay and I'm again I'm a institutionalized government guy so I'm thinking very government he is a business minded guy so he's thinking very business and so he kind of talked me into going public on my social media so I did that with that in mind you know that it would be a platform that I would use to not just you watch family members and stuff, but also just communicate messages. And as I did write a book, get that launched and get it out there. And so it helped with all of that stuff. And then as you get into it, you figure out that it is just a great means of communicating with a full spectrum of people and having interactions. I've met some super cool people through social media. We never would have met had I not.

You know either follow them or they follow me on on social media and get to chatting Yeah, and so that's how that all came to be and then you know Being with him being around him obviously boost My stuff a lot so, you know, anytime we would do something together. I would see my numbers increase and gain more followers and then you know more people start kind of paying attention to your stuff and But it can be it becomes labor -some sometimes because you got to feed the machine. But nonetheless, I enjoy it because I interact with some great people. I just like to have fun with it, just kind of show my life, show what it's like to be this dude, second in command. And I enjoy showing them the cop world from my perspective. I like messing with my wife. My wife and I have a very, she's my best friend, so we have a real friend relationship and much like your good friends at work and stuff, I mess with her all the time, right? It's all about joking and stuff like that. So I show my workouts, I'll show my fitness stuff that I do, I show my cop stuff that I do and my fitness stuff. My wife is involved with that with me, we work out together, that's kind of our time together. So I mess with her on there sometimes and then I try to also just voice my opinion.

Matthew Thomas (48:06.981)

and what I think about things. And then I also try to provide some insight and some guidance where I can. The problem is in our profession, a lot of us have imposter syndrome, right? Because I always, I fall into this trap myself. Like who am I to talk to other people and tell them anything? Because I'm just a dude and what have I done? But then you get to talk into people.

Especially when you get outside of this career, you talk to professionals, CEOs and that level of people or just normal everyday people. You start talking to them and you figure out very quickly that they're very interested in what you've done, what you have to say, how you view the world, some of the stuff you've been through. We think it's just like regular stuff, right? Because we see it all the time, we do it all the time and we're around other dudes and girls that do it all the time. So it's no big deal to us, but to all of them, they are very intrigued with it. And so I kind of, you know, as I went along, I've always been a student of leadership. And I think I know a thing or two about leadership, because I've been through some stuff and I've screwed it up enough to learn from it. And I've had some great mentors that have taught me things. And so now, as I...as I speak and as I teach, because I'm getting into that realm, that's really what it's focused on is what I can provide to others as insight and help so that they, if they're going through something to help them get through that because, you know, I've been through a lot in my life. I've watched friends die, I've watched people I don't know die. you know, when you're with somebody in their last moments on earth, it has...pretty profound effect on you and You just learn a lot about life yourself human beings God And so through all my experiences I try to wrap that into you know, if I can teach people about leadership if I can teach people about Teamwork working with small teams because I did a lot of small team stuff with swat and smuggling So that's kind of all the stuff and that was a long rambling question or answer but

Matthew Thomas (50:31.835)

kind of how it progressed, know, social media into speaking and into teaching and

Critical Aspects Podcast (50:37.808)

Yeah. So, you know, I think that I would encourage you to continue to do that. so your book, I'll just kind of give a little plug in there about your book.

Matthew Thomas (50:49.797)

Yeah, the book is called Interceptors, the untold fight against the Mexican cartel. And it was, it contains a bunch of stories. We have a unique perspective here in Arizona and specifically our county on the cartels and specifically the Sinaloa cartel, which is who we've been fighting for years. And so the book contains a bunch of the operations that we did that I was either a part of or led that were counter cartel operations. And so I kind of start the book off with a little bit about myself. Then I kind of go into the structure of the cartels, their belief systems, some of their religious beliefs, some of their, you know, their hierarchy, some of their lingo, that kind of stuff, and their beliefs. And then I go into the operations themselves, because I kind of wanted to set up like, here's who I am, here's how I know what I know. Here's who they are, here's how they function and how they're structured. And here's how we fought them.

And so it kind of goes through all

Critical Aspects Podcast (51:53.114)

and where can, if somebody wants to get your book, where can they find

Matthew Thomas (51:58.361)

Easiest place is just go to my website. I have a website. It's onetimenation, all one word, dot com, and they can get it there. And they can either, they can get a director, there's links to get it.

Critical Aspects Podcast (52:11.174)

Yeah, and I'll plug that in the show notes so they can just click on that and go right to it And if they want to follow you on social media they can find you

Matthew Thomas (52:16.057)

Awesome.

Matthew Thomas (52:19.483)

Follow me, I am on Instagram pretty much exclusively and that is at deputy underscore one time, which does have a story to it. And I'm on LinkedIn also, but that's pretty much it for

Critical Aspects Podcast (52:34.748)

And I'll plug that in there too. But as we kind of start, you know, you're gonna wrap this up, you know, we've kind already hit on it. We've kind of already, you know, it's kind of been interwoven throughout our entire conversation. But, you know, as you kind of look back over your career and where you're at today, you know, how much has your faith played a factor

Matthew Thomas (52:57.555)

man, especially the last few years a lot. But I think my faith has kept me going because I think my faith has always been there. just pushed it aside for a bit, but it's always been there. I've always believed in God. I just got away from the faith. But I think it is what kept me pushing forward. And I can tell you there are a handful of times that I can think of instantly where I absolutely should have died and did not for whatever reason. And sometimes it was an inch to the left and I would have been a dead man. those, just being involved in those critical incidents, especially where death was knocking on your door, really reaffirmed for me, not only is there a God, but that I have a mission and my mission isn't complete yet because you for whatever reason that bullet did not hit where it was supposed to.

Critical Aspects Podcast (54:02.78)

Yeah, and I think that's important. mean, like I said, it's kind of been interwoven throughout the entire conversation. But I think that if nobody else gets anything out of the last 50, 55 minutes of our conversation, it should be, if you don't have a faith component right now and you're in the law enforcement career, you need to figure it out and you need to fight it. So, it really helps to keep you balanced, keep you focused

Matthew Thomas (54:27.332)

Absolutely.

Critical Aspects Podcast (54:30.928)

keep you on track as far as just your overall life, your wellbeing and your purpose and what you need just to, you know, not only survive your career, but thrive in your career essentially really. So, but.

Matthew Thomas (54:42.646)

It really is that mechanism that balances everything out. And again, you can try and do without it. I've done it myself. I've watched other guys do it. And you can see when somebody figures it out, right? Especially when you've been through it and you're looking at another person and you're trying to guide them through that. And then when they finally just, a lot of times, let go.

Right let go of their preconceived notions let go of of trying to do it yourself you can see it all fall together And come into alignment and create a balance and a calmness that lets them be not only the best cop they can be but just the best person they can be and yeah, so You can fight it all you want man But you're just going to be like the israelites roaming around for 40 years and you're eventually going come back to it. So it's just better to get to it now.

Critical Aspects Podcast (55:39.566)

Yep, yep, you might as well. mean, because that's the hard way to go about it. That's for sure. So, all right. Well, I appreciate your time. I appreciate you coming on and being part of the show. I appreciate what you're doing and just, you your leadership and just how you're making a change and, you know, just the care you have for your people, but not only just your people, but just law enforcement in general. So I appreciate

Matthew Thomas (56:06.447)

Yes, I appreciate you, man. Thanks for having me and God bless.

Critical Aspects Podcast (56:10.104)

Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you.