On Target with Parabellum Training Group

In this conversation, we talk with Jason and Ed, two experienced law enforcement officers who discuss their backgrounds, the importance of training in concealed carry, and the need for balance in law enforcement careers. They share personal anecdotes about managing stress, dealing with difficult calls, and the significance of having hobbies outside of work. The conversation also touches on the evolution of training programs and the importance of community engagement. Jason and Ed discuss the challenges and advancements in law enforcement training, emphasizing the need for continuous improvement and adaptation to new generations of recruits. They explore the importance of preparing officers for real-world scenarios, the evolution of training techniques, and the growing need for community security, particularly in churches. The discussion also touches on the role of faith in personal and professional growth within law enforcement.

Takeaways

• Training is essential for both law enforcement and civilians.
• Maintaining a work-life balance is crucial for mental health.
• Dealing with difficult calls can have lasting emotional impacts.
• Support systems are vital for officers after traumatic events.
• Training is an ongoing evolution that cannot stop.
• Continuous improvement is essential in law enforcement training.
• Faith plays a significant role in personal growth.
• We must strive to be better than we were yesterday.

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Transcript

Vernon Phillips (00:01.07)

All right, welcome back to Critical Aspects of Law Enforcement. I'm your host, Vernon Phillips. And today on the show, we've got a couple of gentlemen from a training group. We've got Jason and Ed. They are gonna just explain kind of who they are, their backgrounds, kind of what they do before we jump into specifically their training group and what they provide. So Jason and Ed, I'm gonna turn it over you guys, let you guys each have an opportunity to share who you are, just kind of your background and things like that. And then we'll jump into some conversation.

Jason and Ed (00:29.806)

My name is Ed Lowry. I've been with the Sheriff's Office almost nine, well, running on 19 years now. But prior to that, I spent 21 years, seven months and 16 days in the United States Army as an Airborne Ranger. After I retired from the military, I went right into law enforcement. I've been there ever since positions that I've held at the Sheriff's Office has been detective, property crimes, patrol deputy, FTO, and I'm currently working as a training coordinator for the Sheriff's Office. So I've been doing that about eight years now.

Vernon Phillips (01:15.502)

Jason, you're up man.

Jason and Ed (01:18.028)

I'm Jason. I work for a sheriff's office in central Florida. I'll try not to hit the table because it shakes it. This is my 19th year with this agency. Been last probably 11, 12 years working narcotics on a federal task force. Firearms instructor for 12 plus years with the agency. Known Ed for almost 19, 20 years. Back in 2016, I kind of noticed that there was, in my opinion, a hole in the market or need for certain type of training specifically for concealed carry. From what I was seeing, you know, go to a gun show or I'd, you know, hear people's stories about just the training they received for concealed carry. And it was barely any training, if at all. I mean, some weren't even firing a gun. So I started a company called Parabellum Training Group in 2016. It primarily just did concealed carry stuff. So it wasn't a whole lot of shooting. was just legal aspects of it. Safe handling of firearms, basic fundamental stuff. And then every now and then I do like a more shooting based class, but I two girls, 13 year old and a 10 year old. So for the last 13 years, that's been, you know, taken up quite a bit of my time. So that kind of went to the wayside that and career stuff. But just recently me and Ed have hooked up and partnered up. We're co-owners of the business. Ed's looking at retirement here in the next few months. And so this year we've really stepped it up and because of the way the laws have changed here in Florida where we have basically constitutional carry, there's not a whole lot of need for desire or wanting to market for specific concealed carry training. But there is for actual marksmanship and firearms training. So we've put together a couple classes that are pretty good in demand locally. We've had success teaching law enforcement and civilians. They're designed primarily for law enforcement, but they have a lot of benefits and carryover to the civilian market. So we've been rolling pretty good about a month a class since January, or a class a month.

Jason and Ed (03:45.735)

since January. we don't have anything until December this year, but we're looking to speed it up and do more frequent classes once he's retired. We're increasing the size of our range and doing some work on the range. So we're going to scale back after our December class. I think January, February timeframe, we get our range done and we'll be able to move forward putting a lot of classes on.

Vernon Phillips (04:13.841)

All right, and I wanna kinda unpack some of that as we move on. But I kinda wanna jump back to just getting a little bit more, kind of your guys' take on kind of where we are currently with law enforcement and kinda some of the things that you guys see and some of the things that we may need to work on moving forward. So both of you guys, sounds like you started around the same time.

Jason and Ed (04:36.998)

Yeah, it's pretty close. Yeah, I got higher to five six

Vernon Phillips (04:41.297)

And I started in 07, so we're all kinda right there. So when you guys kinda look back over your career, I obviously one of the biggest things is we wanna talk about taking care of ourselves, physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. obviously you guys are deep into your career, you guys got a lot of experience, you got a lot of background there, so what is it that you've done over your career?

Jason and Ed (04:45.729)

Good job.

Vernon Phillips (05:10.115)

But you know, especially in the last several years as you kind of get older more experienced to kind of maintain that overall You know that overall balance in your life to make sure that you know, you're not kind of one-sided You understand what I'm

Jason and Ed (05:25.946)

Well, I've learned over the years and probably a lot to do with the military training that I received, you know, in the army is being able to just turn it off when I leave, when I leave work. When I come home, my family doesn't have a clue of some of the stuff that I've seen or I've done. And, and I don't really want them to hear all of that. I'm sure my wife would with listening to anybody and, you know, but, you know, not understanding, you know, what law enforcement, the guys out on the road facing a daily basis. Most civilians don't. And, you know, it's just a myriad of emotions and, you know, just, you see the worst of the worst and that can wear you down. So if you don't know how to turn it off or have an outlet to,

Vernon Phillips (05:56.273)

Sorry.

Jason and Ed (06:25.369)

to recoup after a long day or a long week or the same old stuff every day, then it does affect you. It can beat you down. so just things, special hobbies. One of the things I like to do is I make my own knives. Not for selling or anything like that, just going out and pounding on metal, man, that's a stress reliever in and of itself.

Of course I have my faith, I'm strong in my faith and I have that and that's something that I can share with the family. Things like that is what helps me through it.

Vernon Phillips (07:11.42)

Awesome, thank you Ed.

Jason and Ed (07:12.836)

He's passing it off. Now, same way, mean, similar things. mean, I'm big in outdoors. I love the thing with me and my job is I love it. it's not even really work. I always tell people like that. I'm the luckiest, luckiest guy in my agency. you know, just having the opportunity to to be sent to these high level training courses and get trained by people that are just wizards compared to people we get to see and be around every day. And just also the experience of the guys we get to work with. So I mean, it's, I've been off control for 11 years. Of course, see stuff still, but I never really struggled with a whole lot of it. I've got a strong family. Like I said, I two little girls that keep me busy and you know, fishing, hunting, shooting. mean, I don't really have a whole lot of time to, you know, worry about that kind of stuff. And, you know, we've been lucky. mean, I haven't had, you know, an officer, I wouldn't involve an officer involved shooting or anything like that. So, you know, just your run of the mill stuff you see in this job. But just friends and hobbies are my biggest outlets.

Vernon Phillips (08:42.772)

Yeah, and that's important. I mean, that's what a lot of people, especially in the law enforcement community, don't do is write outside of the job. They don't have something else that they set up and have. So I mean, obviously, you've got your training group, you guys are doing on the side. So you've got something else that you're doing. So your main focus just isn't your job. It hasn't become your entire life. so making sure you got those things you put yourself into outside of the profession is huge, right? That's what we want. We want to encourage people like, look, it's great if this is your calling and this is what you do, but have something else. know, you know, talks about being able to turn it off and then, you know, going out and making sure, you know, that he's investing in his family, but not, you know, taking on everything that he has and then putting it down then, right? Cause then that's not doing any justice to them. You know, it's okay to share with our students and others, you know, our wives like, hey, this is,

Today was kind of a rough day without having to go into details and particulars. But having a hobby is a huge, huge outlet. Being able to go out, like you say, you're making knives, that's a great hobby, that's a great way to take some of that stuff and channel that into a productive outlet. And same thing with you, Jason, going out and being the outdoorsman you are, putting yourself into that.

And then also you guys got your training group. So I think that that is a great outlet for you guys to be able to take on an offset. The stress of the job, because there are days that it can be pretty heavy, even in your current roles now, both of you kind of been off of patrol for a while, but it doesn't mean that you don't interact or have days where it's heavier than others.

Jason and Ed (10:26.08)

Okay.

Jason and Ed (10:34.568)

That's one thing I, you know, helping instruct with the agency and teaching in general, see these new officers, these new deputies, and it's easy for me because like I've been, you know, away from that patrol side of it for so long that I'm not, you know, walking around with my blue line bracelet and like screaming, hey, I'm a cop. I try to tell them like without being rude, I'm like, I'm glad you're enthusiastic about this job like you should be, but also like don't let it just, you know, envelop you and be the definition of who you are. mean, have friends that aren't on this job. Like I love the guys I work with, some of the best friends I've ever met in my life been through this job. But also I've got, you know, best friend that's an electrician, you know, another dude that's an engineer, you know, and there's no, there's no wall that prevents us from talking about stuff. I mean, I remember when I first came on, was like, you only got like, can only hang out with other cops. Like those are the only people you associate with.

That's not the case. mean, that's my biggest thing when I talk to these young guys. like, don't let it consume you. mean, it's job, I mean, for sure. And it's a really great job, but don't let it define you. Don't let it be everything you are. So we see that a lot, especially with the newer guys.

Vernon Phillips (11:52.519)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's important because what happens when it's gone? That's the thing. mean, in today's community, mean, you know, there's, and that can happen for one decision you make, right? It could be your entire life. It could be everything you've invested into. And because of a decision or an incident or some type of circumstances, whether it's on the job or outside of the job, you know, that can be over and then you're left with what? If that's where you put all your... you know, time and your focus like, this is who I am. Now, now where are you? What are you left with? So, I think that's a great thing, especially, you know, when we get some of the season guys that, invest in some of newer guys, I think that's important. I think both of you are in a good position to do that, especially Ed. mean, you're, you're in a great position to do that. cause you know, they're coming through seeing you so much. then Jason, when you kind of instruct.

Jason and Ed (12:30.095)

Exactly.

Vernon Phillips (12:52.039)

you know, with firearms and stuff, you're going to come in contact with them and they need, you know, good seasoned officers to be able to invest into them, you know, kind of point them on the right track. Cause I think that sometimes that's where we, where we mess up, right? Where we kind of just continue this old school indoctrination where, we don't, we don't really give people the opportunity to kind of say, Hey, look, it's okay. If you want to be like, Hey, I just need a minute or

Jason and Ed (13:13.448)

Okay.

Vernon Phillips (13:21.779)

It's okay to have a life outside of the profession. It's okay to not have all your friends just be cops. Because that's what we tend to do, right? We tend to just, get in the group and all of your friends are work friends. And then instead of getting together and talking about things other than the profession, you get around and you start talking about the profession. You know, sometimes that's good, right? You talk a little bit of shop, but then usually then it gets involved in, you know, policies and politics and, you know, who's doing what and who's not doing what and what supervisor is better than the other super in and then that you know and that's not healthy for anybody right and then so so i'm glad to hear that so when you guys kind look back over your career you know what is and i'll give you the option i'll give you the option so what is what is one of either the the most awkward calls for service you've ever worked or you know yeah and eight and

Jason and Ed (13:54.716)

Mm-hmm.

No.

Jason and Ed (14:14.442)

Thank

Vernon Phillips (14:20.019)

It's open, all right? you don't gotta sugar coat it. Or what is one of the harder colors you've worked and then how did you get on the other side of that? So I'll give you the option to weigh in on which one you wanna tackle.

Jason and Ed (14:35.218)

Well, there's one call for service that I can give you that was probably the worst call for service that I've ever had to deal with. And I've dealt with quite a few things. I mean, I've seen death in a whole manner of different ways, all of it's ugly. But the one death that bothered me the most was that of a child. I responded to a to a call where a child had drowned in the swimming pool. And when I got there, the mother was just holding on to the child. And she had the phone on 911 and she wasn't listening to the operator talking to her. And so I asked her to give me the child and she gave me the child and I started CPR right away. I can remember when I...

When I was given the breaths, it was like sticking my head in a five gallon bucket of water just blowing bubbles. You could hear the water gurgling in the lungs. In that moment, I just thought, man, if I could just pick this child up by her ankles and hold her upside down and drain the water out, maybe I could get a few good breaths of air and save a life. But that's not what I was trained to do.

And so I didn't do it. just kept talking myself through the procedures of CPR until the ambulance got there. When they got there, they wished her up and took her out of there. And I followed them to the hospital where they worked on her for another hour doing the same things that I was doing with a little bit more involved, obviously. But the child passed away, didn't make it. And I remember being really frustrated, really mad because

Not only was I trained to give CPR and all of that stuff, but I'm an instructor in it. I trained other deputies to do it and it didn't work. I know I did it right. But in the back of my mind, I was thinking if I could just hold her upside down and drain the water out, I might could save a life. And I didn't do that. And so in the back of my mind, I was thinking, man, if I'd only done that, I'd probably only done that.

Jason and Ed (17:01.375)

And you know, my wife's a nurse. And so I called her immediately and I said, this is what happened. I need to tell you about it. And this is why I'm frustrated. And I told her and she goes, Ed, did they teach you to do that when you went through the training? And I said, nope. He says, well, I tell you there's a reason they didn't teach you to do that because it wouldn't work. Because gravity doesn't just affect the water, it affects everything internally and it would have clogged the...hole that the water would have come out. And that made sense to me, but I wasn't thinking that way at the time. And then she, you know, I got off the phone with her and dispatch called me. said, Hey, you all right? And I said, yeah, I'm just a little frustrated and told them a little bit about what I was thinking. And they said, well, just so you know, not for nothing, you talked yourself through that whole situation out loud and it's all recorded.

And you did it right. You did everything right. And I said, well, it didn't work. And she said, with all the variables that you don't know about.

I mean, you can't, you couldn't have known how long the child was in the water. You couldn't have known how long the child had not been breathing. Those variables you did, you were up against and you didn't even know them. And sometimes it just doesn't work. You can do it all right and it just doesn't work. But you did it right. And so I had to hang my hat on that one because outside of that, I was just frustrated. I was just, you know,

For the next day or two, I was kind of quiet. My wife, she was good about, hey, it's all right, it's all right. And after that, mean, I was okay, I was able to move past it. But in my mind, that's probably one of the most significant event that I dealt with, even though there's been some others that...

Jason and Ed (19:08.104)

didn't affect me like this one, just because what I did didn't work. The other things that I've seen, the dead bodies, all of that stuff, there wasn't nothing to be done. This one, I was instrumental in the process of trying to save his life and it just didn't work out. That kind of bothered me for a few days.

Jason and Ed (19:36.957)

But I got past it.

Vernon Phillips (19:37.014)

Yeah. And that's understandable. mean, and anybody in your situation and anybody reasonable minded would look at that and have a hard time with that. Right. I think there's a lot of times in law enforcement that people, both people on the inside and the outside, right. They have this idea that things in law enforcement or the calls for services sometimes you deal with aren't going to affect you.

Right? That somehow you get into the profession and automatically turns off your human emotion. Well, that's not true. Right? Especially, especially when it comes to pediatric calls. I, you guys know, I I talked to a lot of different people and I've got a lot of people that reach out to me and a lot of them stem from, you know, the pediatric calls. Cause those are the ones that, you know, are, are some of the hardest to deal with because, you know, we look at that and you're like, Hey, this isn't how it's supposed to go. Right.

You you do in CPR and you know, the child's still not, you know, making it like, you know, in our minds and everything we believe, right? In our, in how we, our moral code, we're like, this isn't how it's supposed to go, right? So it's a, it's moral injury. So we have to kind of be able to step back and say, okay, look, what did I do? I did everything the way I was trained. I did everything the way I was supposed to do. And the outcome is, is what it is, is what it is, right?

And then you kind of walk yourself back through, you know, what I change anything, right? And you talked yourself through it and you walked yourself through it and you talked to people and you hey, did you do what you were trained to do? Yeah. Then you did what you could do. then we got a of people that like, well, I don't understand then how does this happen? How did we get to this point? Why did they still die? you know, some people are always like, hey, tell me, tell me. And I'm like, I don't have the answer to that.

You know and in those cases it's okay for us to say hey, I don't have the answer because Sometimes we don't but you can rest assured like especially in your training if you've done it in a way that you're trained and the way you're supposed to and you know, then You know to fall back on that say hey, I did everything the way I was supposed to But it sounds like you know, you got a good support system, you know, you're able to make some phone calls I mean call your wife and and

Jason and Ed (21:41.175)

Thank you.

Jason and Ed (21:51.133)

you

Vernon Phillips (22:03.136)

And then just having somebody from dispatch reach out to you and reassure you. I think that's what it's about. Because sometimes, I think sometimes we do better at that now than we used to. But I think sometimes we still don't do the best we can when we follow up with people, especially in circumstances like that.

Jason and Ed (22:22.198)

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I used to didn't be that way. I used to just keep everything in, but you know, that's not healthy either. We teach our people that it's okay to reach out, you know, if you're having an issue with this or that and, you know, talk to somebody. Even if it's not me, talk to somebody, you know. I think I've even had deputies come to me and I've sent them to you.

I won't mention any names, but I'm sure you remember a couple. You know, it's nice to know that they feel that they could come to me and share something that they're having a problem with. you know, because they don't know what outlet they can use to get through it. you know, I was able to direct them towards you.

Vernon Phillips (22:53.335)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (23:14.737)

Yeah, and a lot of times when they come and they sit down and you kind of walk through some stuff, it's like, surprisingly, a lot of people already know the answer, right? But it's just getting them that opportunity to kind of talk through themselves. And then they kind of get to that answer, that conclusion on their own. But it's just sometimes you kind of need that, you need a little bit of prompting to be able to do that to where you, you know, if you're just left to yourself, right? And you're just thinking about, whatever the situation was or whatever the issue of hand is and that's all you're doing but you're not getting any type of, know, making use of any type of resources and you're just kind of either pushing it down or you're stowing it or you're just kind of mulling it over and over and over yourself. Like it's going to be this perpetual cycle but you know, kind when you can sit down and kind of start actually talking about with somebody, you know, then some of those, some of that stuff kind of comes out and then some of those light bulbs kick out in their life. You know, they're able to kind of talk themselves through it. So.

Jason and Ed (24:10.466)

Yeah.

How about you, Jason? Well, I got an awkward one, but I don't know if I want to follow it because it's pretty funny right after this one or after Ed's, but.

Vernon Phillips (24:22.141)

Well, no, that's all right. I I mean, if you want to share that, I mean, that kind of gets us, you know, that kind of turns the ship a little bit. We kind of get out of the out of the seriousness a little bit. I tell you, I had one, a couple episodes back when the guy talked about a call for service where somebody complained about a domestic and they get there and it wasn't a domestic, it was, you know, some type of weird sexipede kind of thing going on. And he's talking about this.

Jason and Ed (24:46.894)

you

Vernon Phillips (24:49.489)

who goes in and lays like in this contraption and he said, so, so yeah, I mean.

Jason and Ed (24:53.55)

Well, mine's not that awkward. I'll tell it just because there's one particular person that would probably enjoy me telling it. So I started back in 05 and when I got hired on, of course went through FTO. One of my FTOs was on a special unit, so he was kind of in and out and his own partner was stepping in and trained me.

Vernon Phillips (24:58.415)

Yeah.

Jason and Ed (25:23.342)

got to know this guy pretty well because I was with him quite a bit. So we went through FTR, went through FTO with him for whatever phase he had me in, then worked with him for a couple years from time to time. he ended up leaving law enforcement altogether, moved out of state. then, so the years go by now, I'm probably 10 years, eight, nine, 10 years in, I'm an FTO, training folks. I see, I think my lieutenant was like, hey, can you come out to the o course and help run some new hires for their PT test. So I show up there and I see this guy. He shows up, he's back, I'm like, what are you doing here? And he's getting a convertible BMW and he's a big tall dude. And I was like, what the heck, man, you were like the GM of some BMW dealership out there, you're coming back to do this? So long story short. Yeah, exactly. So long story short, I'm now his trainee, or his training officer, he's my trainee. So it's kind of like the grasshopper type scenario there.

Vernon Phillips (26:13.99)

He

Jason and Ed (26:23.02)

So it was great because it was the easiest training I ever had. I'd just sit in the car and like, already handled that. When you're done, come back. So we get an alarm call, I think, in this rural area of the county we work. go up this house, kind of walk around. We don't see anything. Nobody's there. This is daytime in the afternoon. And after a few minutes being on scene,

A neighbor we think comes over and he's like, Hey, this is my aunt's or grandma's house or whatever. You know, the alarm company called me and I was like, all right, great. You got a key. You know, we can just make sure. And he's like, yeah, I think there's one over here on the side of the house. So, there's this big oak tree with a overhanging branch that's pretty low. And I'm walking behind the, this family member, you know, down this path. And, then my training is behind me and, this guy the guy that shows up, hits his head on the branch, the oak tree branch. I mean, he whacks it, didn't even see like he was looking down at his phone or something, just wax it. So at the same time he waxes his head, I trip and I fall forward and this little guy is out like this as I fall forward. Well, he's wearing like gym shorts, like just regular gym shorts. And I hook his waistband with my pinky as I'm falling down. And so he's holding his head cause he just whacked his head.

Vernon Phillips (27:36.768)

Yeah

Jason and Ed (27:45.358)

And now I'm pulling his pants down as I'm falling and my training standing behind me just dying laughing is the funniest thing he's ever seen in his life, so Long story short every time I see my old trainee. He gives me a little Thank you, so that was pretty awkward support guys pants down

Vernon Phillips (27:56.449)

yeah.

Vernon Phillips (28:05.184)

You know, that's a pretty funny story. And I know who you're talking about and I can just see just like uncontrollable big belly laughs coming from such a, from an enormous, enormous individual. And then I can definitely see him giving you the old every time he.

Jason and Ed (28:11.8)

you

Jason and Ed (28:16.363)

yeah. yeah.

Jason and Ed (28:22.856)

Yeah.

Jason and Ed (28:27.03)

Every time he's told everybody, everybody he's ever worked with as a story. He's like, that's the guy I talking about.

Vernon Phillips (28:32.113)

I know.

That's pretty funny. That's good stuff. So as we kind of transition out of that, and I want to make sure we dive into your guys, your training group, but when we start looking at law enforcement in general, I'll throw two questions out and you guys can whoever wants to take it can take it. But what do you feel like we're doing? And Ed might jump on this one and I'm not trying to step on your toes, but.

Jason and Ed (28:47.67)

You

Vernon Phillips (29:03.713)

Do you feel like when we're talking about new hires and bringing new people in, do you feel like we're doing a good enough job, you know, with our, just across the board, not just at our agency, but just across the board, you know, with training them for the job and getting them prepared and ready for, you know, just the experiences and the career that they're jumping into. You know, so, and then also, you know, to those that are getting ready to...

to retire to our 15, 20 and 25 plus individuals, what is some advice you'd give them as they're getting ready? They're kind of getting mid and then towards end of their career.

Jason and Ed (29:43.161)

Well, I'll start with the first one, you know, with the new kids coming on. I'll say this. Everything that we're doing now, we're doing everything that we can, that we have the ability to do with the assets and the personnel that we have to do it. know, so the people that we have in training are doing an outstanding job and putting together the training curriculum and the actual training on the ground for the new hires. But they're, you know, the generation gaps that we talk about, know, X generation, Y generation, all of that. But the generation coming out of the schools now, they're different than the generation previous. And so how they learn and how those are all different hurdles that we have to overcome.

I think we've tried really hard in the training unit, our training unit, to overcome that by bringing in some of those same generations to be instructors because they've been with us for a little while and they understand the new generation coming in. Where guys like me, I don't understand the new generation. Why can't you do what I'm telling you to do? You know what I'm saying? hold on a second. Let me text you in.

It's just a gap that needed to be bridged. And I think we're doing that. We're doing the best we can at it. But how this new generation of officers learn and take in the concepts that we're trying to teach is different than what it used to be in the past. And so we have to evolve to meet that gap and I think we're doing that. think we can always do more. Training is one of those things that you can't stop. It's an evolution forward every day. There's something you can learn from anybody and in this job, because the situations you face aren't mundane, they're not the same old thing every day.

Jason and Ed (32:07.133)

Every traffic stop could be a different trap. It could be, is not going to be the same. You can't treat it the same. You have to go in there with your eyes open and head on a swivel. That doesn't change. But what you're facing down range is never going to be exactly the same as what you faced just a few minutes ago or the day before. And training for that kind of environment is a tough, is a tough thing to do and to get people to understand that they just can't be complacent.

That's one of the hardest things to teach right there is complacency. Because some days you get bored and then the end of the week comes and you're ready for a weekend and you've been bored all week doing just routine stuff and then all of a sudden, bam, the hammer falls and you're in a situation you haven't faced before. So what do you do? What do you do? You've to fall back on your training, right? Well, you're always going to fall back on the lowest level of training you got. And so we try to push our training forward and stay current in everything that we do and give the best training that we can to our people. And I think we've done a pretty good job. Well, I can add to that. think that's one of the biggest progressions I've seen in my career here at the agency is recently, within, I'd say the last eight years or so, the desire to not just say what we've always done is good enough.

like staying relevant, being open to new techniques, new ways to look at things and not just being in our own bubble and saying, this is good enough. mean, just some of the stuff that we've done in firearms, building clearing tactics and stuff like that, it's just, you know, that we've rolled out in the last couple of years is just like we always talked about, I we're not trying to tutor our own horns to ourselves, but we're like, man,

We never got this level of training as a one, two, three, four year deputy. Yeah, we had to go outside the agency to get this level of training, then bring it back to the training division to do it. You know, one of the things that I like to say, and I say it quite a bit to our training staff, hey listen, if we always do, if we always tell them, we'll always get what we always got. So if you want to move forward and progress forward, you got to stay current. And you got to think that what we did yesterday,

Vernon Phillips (34:15.256)

Yeah.

Jason and Ed (34:34.012)

was great for yesterday, but what do we need to do today to be great for today? You know, we're always looking to make ourselves better than we were the day before. Then I think we're on the right track.

Vernon Phillips (34:49.126)

Yeah, and I think that leads right into what you guys are doing with your trading group as well. You're wanting to give people the opportunity to be better than where they're at currently. And I think that's huge. And I told you this to you, Ed, after firearms this past year that...

Jason and Ed (34:51.378)

and

Vernon Phillips (35:18.083)

This year was, I thought was phenomenal. Right, just being able to kind of peel back, strip back to the basics and like, let's focus in on like the important, the fundamentals and you know, make you a better, more proficient shooter. you know, if people listened and they actually followed through with what you were teaching this year, they absolutely can dial in and be a better, more proficient shooter. Now you're gonna have the ones that are just gonna go out there and they're gonna do it just to do it because that's what we have to do but then you're gonna have those are gonna say and they're actually teaching some they're teaching us some really good useful stuff so I'm gonna apply it and I'm gonna make myself you know better than I was and I think that's that's what we always have to do like we could say hey you know we're you know we're top shelf right but you can always be better I mean that's

Jason and Ed (36:15.905)

Let's go.

Vernon Phillips (36:16.71)

If you want to kind put it into the context of your faith, you start looking at sanctification. It's the process of just becoming what? More. That's what you're doing. We don't just stop. If you read through the Bible and you've read through cover to cover, you don't just say, and stop. You go back and yeah, and you read it some more.

Jason and Ed (36:41.284)

Yeah, got it.

Vernon Phillips (36:46.668)

It's you when you look at it from a Christian standpoint like the sanctification is the process of becoming more Christ-like and Like that's our goal in Life is to be more correct We're never going to get to that point this side of heaven because that's just not gonna happen Right, but we always strive for that and that's how we should we should go about anything in life, right? We should always be striving to be better than who we were the day before but I think There's so many of us. We just kind of get stuck in that complacent that

Complacency bubble and you talk about it. We get complacent like okay. Well, you know I did I did my firearms this year. I did my DTAC this year I checked that box, you know, and you know, unfortunately, there's some people like I don't have to you know, touch my gun again until next year qualifications and and that shows and that

Jason and Ed (37:33.805)

Yeah, kind of thought process bothers me, but I do understand though that life happens. There are things that do get in the way to keep you from going to that next level the next day to be better than you were the day before because life happens and things get in the way. you have to, part of what we were talking about earlier about decompressing and you have to make time for yourself to

to get that. You have to be dedicated and have that professional discipline, especially in this job, to take the next step, to be better than you were the day before.

Vernon Phillips (38:13.383)

Yeah, and I know I threw another question out there, but I kind of want to table that because I want to give you guys the opportunity to kind of dive into your training group more. So, you know, Parabellum Training Group, and I can put, you know, I can put some of that information in the show notes, you know, like your guys' Facebook page or your website or whatever. So people can go there and check it out. So you kind of saw the need, you saw the gap that with training and

And I completely agree with that because I've talked to individuals like, yeah, I got my carried conceal and you know, they went and they kind of showed us, you we all took our firearm and they said, okay, hey, this is the basics. And then we shot five times and they gave us a, you know, our certificate and they sent us on our way. And think we were there maybe, maybe three hours, maybe four. I'm like,

Jason and Ed (39:01.868)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (39:02.793)

All right, so now we have this individual who feels completely competent in their ability to carry a concealed weapon. So from that standpoint, you probably saw like, there's a deficiency here. Let's do better. Let's do better.

Jason and Ed (39:19.392)

yeah.

Well, I mean, I don't want to get into, you know, opinion about law and all that, but, but in all reality, these guys that were doing those minimum standard training things, they were within the letter of the law. And, you know, to me, you know, you got to take the initiative as a, as a citizen or as, you know, law enforcement officer or whoever, if you're going to take that liability and that responsibility on to carry a firearm, to protect yourself and protect others you better be dang sure proficient in it and be able to take a high risk, high-loved-billy shot when it's needed because you don't get to pick the time the gunfight happens. You don't get to determine where it occurs and who you're with and what gun you have with you. mean, you can determine that, but what the other guy's got. So that's kind of our mindset when we do these trainings is and do these classes is we want people to understand that it's not just, it's fun. I love shooting. It's one of the most fun things I do, but it's also, there's a serious aspect to it, especially with the guys that work with us and they're in the same profession with us. And I try to drive that home, even on the detention side. We hear this a lot of times, they don't want to shoot, they're not into it. They lock their gun up before they go into jail and they're in the jail all day long. But I'm like, you wear a uniform in public, it has the same badge that everybody else does.

You know, the general citizen doesn't know that you're a detention deputy and it doesn't matter. You're sworn. You know, you're issued a firearm and you need to be proficient with it. and again, you know, there's plenty of guys that have been off duty in uniform that had to handle stuff. so I understand to a point, but also like, this is a part of your job, just like, you know, being able to physically do your job, being able to, you know, write proper reports, all that stuff's part of it. You can't just say, well, I'm not going to neglect this one thing.

Jason and Ed (41:19.886)

And I was harping on the guys today. Like, you know, we did some runs through our shoot house and our Leslie to shoot house. And I'm like, guys, if you're, you're feeling good about your shot placement and your movements, like you weren't in the same room with me, you know, and I don't want you to ever be like, man, we just crushed it. And that's it. I want you to go, Hey, I can work on this. I need to work on this. Like I told guys, the new hire state, they, high-fiving each other after they pass the firearms qual. I'm like, bro, you've passed it, yeah, but that's a minimum qualification. And your shot group was like this, right? And nobody was holding the time to you. Like if you think that's good, yeah, you need to really readjust your thought process. So with what we teach to the guys we work with and the civilians is fundamentals, mastering and fundamentals. We do a lot of stuff dry, like...

People show up to our classes and I'll tell them every time like class starts at nine o'clock in the morning and they ain't fired a single round, 11 o'clock. And I'm like, would you think that you'd be here for two hours and not fired a single round? And everyone on was like, nope, but I'm glad we didn't. You know, we worked out a lot of stuff without firing a single round and we pre-set. I spent, they don't have 10 minutes a day driving. And the effort shows when they do start firing, you know, they're going, wow, you know.

Vernon Phillips (42:39.912)

Yeah.

Jason and Ed (42:44.848)

It's not just firearms that we teach. We teach every aspect of it, I think, from rifle to pistol, from applying the fundamentals, which is the basics, to intermediate and more of an immersion level course for your people that can, that have mastered the fundamentals and can apply them accurately and quickly. We do that with the rifle too, but we also, some of the other things that...

We're looking to put on our land navigation research and rescue courses, TACMED courses, anything out there that people are looking for. One of the things that we also see a need for and we are actually putting together some plans for a couple of different churches is security assessments.

And in that process, being able to provide training for their armed security teams and stuff like that, which has been pretty successful so far. Yeah, mean, this year's been, I'd say, 80 plus percent of our clientele has been church-based security team members. Maybe they're not necessarily on the team already, but they have the desire to be more proficient and get on it. So it's been great. I I've never...

Vernon Phillips (44:04.043)

Yeah.

Jason and Ed (44:10.678)

I've never had a student since 2016 that was just an unknown person to me. Either knew somebody that knew them, they came recommended, and I kind of like keeping it that way. It's either all law enforcement or I got to know somebody that knows you. know, for what we do, the liability that we take on, it's the way I like to do it, and Ed's the same way. So I I've been blessed to have Ed jump on board this year and really have that wealth of knowledge. mean, this guy's book is this thick of stuff he could certify to teach that he was lucky enough to get Uncle Sam to pay for over 20 years in the Army. So it's been great.

Vernon Phillips (44:56.523)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (45:01.066)

Yeah, I think that especially when you start talking about church security, unfortunately, I think that that's something that's going to be more relevant here, you know, probably sooner than sooner than later. I think there's definitely some, there's a place for that. You know, kind of funny story. There was a guy used to go to our church and he talking about, know, yeah, yeah, I carry a gun and pulls it pulls it out of his pocket.

Jason and Ed (45:30.429)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (45:31.086)

Right? Stuffed in his pocket inside a sock. I'm like, it's an interesting choice of, you know, holster there. Yeah. So it's like, so there definitely is out there. There's a level of deficiency that definitely, you know, is there and is needed. So, but it kind of goes back to if people are willing to do it.

Jason and Ed (45:40.214)

Nice holster. Stay warm.

Vernon Phillips (45:59.149)

They're willing to put the time in, put the work in, and to better themselves. And that's what it is. We can provide all these resources. You guys can provide all this training. You know, the agency. We can up our training level. But it's up to the individual to apply that and to better themselves. It's just like when we talk about resources for their mental, emotional, spiritual well-being and their overall wellness. It's like...

You can provide all those resources and you can say, this is what we have. This is what's available. We can't make them make use of it. Right. At some point they've got to get to get to the idea of themselves. Like, Hey, you know what? I'm going to make use of this. I'm going to make use of what's available to me and I'm going to better myself. And, know, I'll say that I think that in the last several years, I mean, her agency is, is jumped forward significantly just across the board.

And I think that we do a lot better job preparing our people and providing resources for our people. if individuals don't see that, I think it's just because they just don't want to see it or they just have, you know, they're just have a reason why they just don't, they don't want to see it, right? Whether there's, you know, there's some type of disgruntledness there or, know, whatever it may be. But I think that we've done an incredibly good job, you know, moving forward.

Jason and Ed (47:11.639)

Yeah.

Jason and Ed (47:24.058)

Well, you know, I like to say it's always better to have and not need and the need not have and, you know, the more hopeless people become in this world, especially those that don't have, you know, a strong faith based background, you know, the more I don't think it's a matter of if anymore, it's just a matter of when these things it could happen to any of us. And if we're not prepared to handle those things in an accurate, quick, and expedient manner without harming somebody else or the background, you're setting yourself up for failure if you don't prepare yourself. And that's what we've seen with the clients we've been working with these past years. There's no lack of heart and desire and want to protect their church and their family there at the church. but we've been lucky enough that we've had plenty of them that recognize that they're not at that level and they're reaching out to, to receive that training to give them more confidence to do so. Cause you know, just as, as helpful as you can be with a gun and an incident like that, you can be just as harmful in a liability if you're not confident in what you're doing. Well, we've had a bunch of deputies, know, in the intermediate pistol courses that we've been teaching have come back and said, I really didn't realize that I needed more work than what I, I thought I was better than what I really am. There was a lot of hurt egos showing up thinking that they were at this level and within five minutes of the first day, were realizing that they weren't quite where they thought they were. cause they hadn't been pushed, you know, so it's a lot different than standing up and on a static range and, you know, taking your time just kind of gauging the wind and taking that shot and making it the best perfect pretty little shots you can take, then when we say, OK, let's performance on demand, ready, and they miss. It's because they don't put the fun together. Sure.

Vernon Phillips (49:37.156)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (49:41.657)

So to kind of wrap up our time, just kind of one last thing I want to jump on is when you guys look back over your career, how much has your faith played a role in where you're at today?

Jason and Ed (49:56.383)

For me...

Well, I'd be honest, mean, every day, you know, is a new day and I, you know, you know, I'm

I'm probably the worst one out there. I believe in Christ. I believe He's my personal Lord and Savior. And I've known that from a long time ago, 1985. every day is a different day. don't always do it the right way. I fall short all the time. My faith has been, it has saved my life.

Vernon Phillips (50:11.758)

Hehehehe

Vernon Phillips (50:33.474)

yeah.

Jason and Ed (50:39.37)

more than once. And this job and my job in the military, just, without it, I wouldn't be here today. I put it that way. A tremendous amount.

Vernon Phillips (50:56.08)

Yeah, I mean, to kind of get none of us are going to get it right each and every day. I mean, you know, even even in my role, I mean, there's days where I'm like, you know, I'm better. I know I'm better than that. But we all we all struggle, right? We all fall short. But I think it's just knowing that and understanding that. then continuing like we've talked about this whole time, continuing to to strive to be to be better than than we are, you know, especially better than we were the day before.

We're going to exceed that by leaps and bounds. might just be, hey, you know what? I four steps back today. So tomorrow, it might be one step forward. But I think it's that continual process of just trying to always be better than we were the day before.

Jason and Ed (51:46.826)

I think just giving me kind of a reference point. I'm probably worse than Ed when it comes to that. since I can remember as a child, I've known the story of the Lord and what needs to be done or what he expects. just for me, it's just a reference point.

We raise our kids that way. It is what it is. I don't know any different. It's kind of like you just know that's the way. Sometimes you don't hit it.

Vernon Phillips (52:39.058)

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. mean, even, you know, we look back at the New Testament, when we read through it, see, you there's a, even Peter referred to as this rock, right? You know, you're the rock I'm going to build my church upon. And it's like, he definitely messed up. but that's, we're all going to mess up, but we just have to continue to strive, you know.

Jason and Ed (53:02.57)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (53:08.582)

to strive to be better each and every day. But I appreciate you guys, I appreciate you taking the time to jump on here and just kinda share some of your guys' experiences and your knowledge, but also just talk about your training group, what you guys are doing, what you're offering. And I'll put that in the show notes and that way if anybody wants to get on Facebook or your, do you guys have an actual website or just Facebook?

Jason and Ed (53:14.014)

Yeah. Yes, sir. Thank you.

Jason and Ed (53:31.4)

Yeah, theparabellumtraininggroup.org.

Vernon Phillips (53:34.448)

Okay, all right, I'll put that on there that way they can go and they can, you know, kind of, you know, kind of look through there and see if there's anything that they want to jump into. But I appreciate you guys appreciate taking the time. So

Jason and Ed (53:46.472)

Thanks for having us. Thank you, sir.

Vernon Phillips (53:48.494)

Absolutely.