Physical, Mental, Emotional, and Spiritual Impacts of the Profession w/ Deputy Commissioner Matt Walsh

In this conversation, we speak with Deputy Commissioner Matt Walsh who shares his extensive background in law enforcement and discusses the importance of maintaining balance in the profession. He emphasizes the significance of connection, therapy, and mental health awareness among officers. Walsh recounts personal experiences with trauma and the journey towards forgiveness, highlighting the need for open discussions about mental health in law enforcement. The conversation also touches on humorous moments in the field, showcasing the lighter side of a challenging profession. Matt Walsh shares his insights on the law enforcement profession, emphasizing the importance of treating others with respect, the need for continuous learning, and the critical role of mental health support for officers. He discusses the alarming rates of suicide within the law enforcement community and the necessity for comprehensive wellness programs. Walsh also highlights the significance of faith in building resilience and coping with the challenges faced by officers throughout their careers.

Takeaways:

·  Connection is vital for mental and emotional well-being.

·  Therapy should not be stigmatized in law enforcement.

·  Anger can be harmful and is often self-destructive.

·  Forgiveness is essential for personal growth.

·  Sharing experiences can help others heal faster.

·  Coping with trauma requires ongoing effort and support.

·  Physical, spiritual, and mental fitness are crucial for officers.

·  Continuous learning is essential for personal and professional growth.

·  Faith plays a significant role in resilience and coping with job stress.

Transcript

Vernon Phillips (00:01.537)

All right, welcome back to critical aspects of law enforcement. I'm your host Vernon Phillips. And today in this episode, we have the deputy commissioner of FDLE with us, Matt Walsh. So what I want to do is I want to give him an opportunity just to introduce himself, tell us a little bit about his background, his history in law enforcement, his education, things like that. So, Matt, I appreciate you coming on.

Matt Walsh (00:25.112)

Thanks, Bernadette. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you and talk all things law enforcement. So I'm the, yeah, no worries. I'm the deputy commissioner of FDOE. There were three deputy commissioners. So we have the commissioner Mark Glass and three deputy commissioners. I'm over the public safety services. So that encompasses our uniformed police department, Capitol Police.

Vernon Phillips (00:31.246)

That's great. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Matt Walsh (00:54.518)

Governor protection, high tech cyber, IT, CGS, targeted violence prevention and officer wellness. So I about 600 people under me on my side of the house. started my career in 1997 at Lee County Sheriff's Office, like everyone else does that goes to a local agency. I started as a road patrol deputy and during my time at Lee County, I worked.

Road Patrol, street crimes, auto theft detective, homicide detective, and I was a SWAT operator for three of those years as well. I was hired by FDLE and moved to Sebring, that's in the middle of state, in the middle of nowhere. A lot of people don't know where it is and continue to work there for five years working homicides, primarily. I went back to Fort Myers as the JTTF, Joint Terrorism Task Force, Task Force agent.

I spent a couple years at the FBI, then I spent another two or three years at the US Marshals Fugitive Task Force, worked some organized crime cases, and then I took a promotion to Jacksonville, Florida as the Special Agents Supervisor over the death squad. FD Elite, in those years, we worked all the unattended deaths within the prison system. So we're a very busy squad.

I spent 10 years in Jacksonville and when I left Jacksonville to come to Tallahassee, I was the special agent in charge for the Jacksonville region, which is 13 counties. I came to Tallahassee about just over two and a years ago as a deputy commissioner and I've been here since. I'm also a social worker, so I went back and got a master of social work degree. I've given psychotherapy to the veteran population and to the law enforcement population. Married for 20, 21, 22, almost 23 years. yeah I know, two kids, one in college, daughter, and one still in high school, getting ready to go to college. So that's my brief background.

Vernon Phillips (02:51.277)

You better get that right.

Vernon Phillips (03:03.374)

Well, I appreciate that. There's a lot of history there. mean, obviously you've spent many years in law enforcement and now you're in the position to where you're able to kind of step in and also help them throughout just the many things that they incur throughout their careers. So I appreciate that. I appreciate what you do. So I mean, there's a lot of things there we can pull in. We can unpack and everything, but knowing the job, knowing the profession, knowing that your history of law enforcement, what is it that you do that keeps yourself balanced physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually all the way across the board?

Matt Walsh (03:39.116)

That's a great question.

Matt Walsh (03:43.278)

Yeah, that's a great question. First is what I've learned over the years because this is process. This isn't an easy job. There are things that I used to do. In the book, Emotional Survival for Law Enforcement by Kevin Gilmour, he talks about the ustas. I used to do that. I used to do that because we get so involved in our career becomes us. you know, as I've learned and grown and with my relationship with my wife and in my faith and my kids, connection is a very important part of how to, how I make sure I'm taking care of myself. So my wife and I, spend, we dedicate time every day, every day to connect, to walk, to really unpack our daily stuff you know, mentally, again, it's a learning process, you know, until I, until I went back for my social work degree, I didn't really deal with a lot of stuff, you know, whether it's from when I was a kid and then all the stuff that kind of layers on, after you become a police officer. so, my wife, you know, of course we, we always connected, but until I went back to my advanced degree, in, really focusing on, psychotherapy.

You have to work on yourself. And I realized, well, I need to take care of myself. So I started going to therapy and it helps me get rid of all that stuff that kind of just packs up over time. then, and then spiritually, you know, again, you know, the career takes you on all these paths and sometimes you get away from your faith. And because of a strong relationship with my wife, she recognized I was starting to stray from my faith. And the next thing I knew, we were volunteering at church.

And we volunteered at church for six years, teaching CCD to the kids and with the youth group. And really, again, that's connections. So we make sure that I always keep connected to what's important to me. And that's people, that's my family, my faith. That's how I've really gone after taking care of myself.

Vernon Phillips (06:04.082)

Yeah, those are all great points because especially you start you hit on a couple things that you know, there are bad words and law enforcement, right? You know, like the connectiveness with your significant other, because a lot of times what happens is you get into the profession and it becomes, you know, just so much a part of you that a lot of times, your significant other, your spouse, they take that backseat to the career. And because of that, we have marriages that suffer. So making sure that you have that connectivity, having that common things in place that you guys are able to do together, that just strengthens your relationship, strengthens your marriage. So that's a huge, huge key point that we need to be continuing to instill.

Matt Walsh (06:28.174)

That's right.

Vernon Phillips (06:48.11)

you know, in our law enforcement professionals. Also, you hit on another word that we don't talk about, right? A bad word. said therapy. Most people in law enforcement, they don't like that word, right? It's one of those words you, what do mean? You want me to go sit down and talk with somebody? Yeah. I mean, you do it all the time and you just don't even realize it. mean, a lot of people have that person that they go to and they just kind of dump, right? Well, that's

Essentially what therapy is, yeah, there's a little bit of differences there, but you're going and you're able to express and kind of get a lot of that stuff that you just hold deep down inside out. And then once you do that, it gives you the ability to process it and then also heal and recover and move forward. And also the faith aspect, maintaining that, maintaining that connectivity. Those are all vital points that we want to continue to push and strive for our law enforcement professionals to really just lean into because you know a lot of times there's just maybe one focus you mean for a lot of times we focused on just the physical aspect right you know making sure hey making sure you're in shape make sure this and yeah that's a great component but that's not the only one right we got it we need to we need to invest into all those areas of our lives you know to just

Matt Walsh (08:02.702)

That's right. That's right.

Vernon Phillips (08:09.079)

develop us and round us out to be the most effective and efficient person we can be and if we're not doing that then you know we're doing a disservice to ourselves but we're also doing a disservice to the individuals that we serve so I appreciate what you had to say on that

Matt Walsh (08:21.07)

Yeah, you know, no, my pleasure. know, when I first started, know, if you were hurting, you didn't tell anybody because it was weakness. You know, that's how it was viewed. That's the stigma behind, you know, just suffering or having a hard time with something. And if you're weak, then you're a coward. And if you're a coward, people can't trust you, then you'll be isolated. So...

What do we do? We just bottle it up. But it's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like pouring 10 ounces of water into a five ounce glass. You can bottle up until it gets to that very top, until it starts overflowing. And that's when I see, that's what I've seen friends, colleagues leave the profession, kill themselves. And it's unacceptable. So, you know, I think over the last five years, we've made great strides in destigmatizing mental health, we still have long way to go. We still have long way to go, but I think it's programs like this and some other things that we're doing on a statewide level that we are moving in the right direction.

Vernon Phillips (09:24.114)

Yeah, absolutely.

Vernon Phillips (09:34.771)

Yeah, I believe that also I think in the last several years we've made you know really big headway on you know just diving into the you know the mental impact that the profession has on individuals and it's gotten to be a little bit more acceptable to start talking about it right to start saying hey it's okay to say man that call really really got to me and you know and kind of being able to express that and I think what you're saying is you know history you know kind in law enforcement is you internalize it right you bottle it up you keep it to yourself

And then what happens is, like you just feel like you're the only one that's dealing with this because nobody else is saying anything. Right. And then that isolation sets in because you don't want to be around anybody. And then, you know, all those little lies start creeping in. And then, you know, that's when we have people make bad decisions. Some of them even result in their own death. So, you know, that's what we want to try to avoid. We want to try to get away from that. We want to try to just promote like, hey, it's OK for you to say, man, this one's pretty hard.

Matt Walsh (10:14.305)

and

Vernon Phillips (10:37.486)

And I might need to go and just kind of talk this one out.

Matt Walsh (10:41.634)

Yeah, you're right. And what you're describing is, so in the therapy world, cognitive behavioral therapy. Thoughts create feelings and feelings create behaviors. And as humans, we have three different kinds of thoughts. And they're all automatic. Automatic positive, automatic neutral, and automatic negative. And the neutral and positive, they don't affect us in a bad way. Actually, positive thoughts, those automatic positive thoughts can give us a boost in our spirits, but those automatic negative thoughts, when you're isolated and insulated, when you withdraw, as you said, they kind of creep in. then our brain, it plays tricks on us. And that's when it can get into anxiety, depression, maybe some post-traumatic stress, some other mental health disorders. But it's our job to...recognize when an automatic negative thought is coming in confronting it, you know, actually saying, okay, I'm having one of those thoughts because we still get them. You can't stop them from happening. But if we can recognize it, say, all right, I'm having a negative thought. That's not necessarily true. And then reframe it. So if we can reframe our negative thoughts to make them neutral, then we can we can be healthier. And for

Vernon Phillips (12:05.31)

yeah.

Matt Walsh (12:08.258)

The people in our profession, for us to be at our optimal, you talked about physical. We need to be physically, spiritually, and mentally fit to best serve the citizens that we've sworn oath to, to protect and to serve. So we need to make sure we're taking care of our brain.

Vernon Phillips (12:27.993)

Yep. Yeah. And there's a lot of, you like you said, there's a lot of different modalities out there that you can dive into to kind of reframe that, you know, like cognitive behavioral therapy, then, know, cognitive processing therapy, like all those are really, in my opinion, are really good for law enforcement because that helps them, you know, debunk and reframe those negative thoughts that they have.

You know, some of those stem from childhood, right? That they've learned that they that are ingrained in them. Some of them come from the profession, right? Because of what they've seen and what they've witnessed a better part of. So, you know, I there's a lot of other modalities that are out there going on right now. mean, EMDR is a big thing, you know, coming up in the first responder world and things like that. But, you know, definitely that ability to start recognizing it and reprocessing and alter those negative held beliefs, you know, that really helps individuals kind of change the way they perceive themselves, also individuals around them, and society, and the people they deal with.

Matt Walsh (13:30.104)

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And it's because of the work you're doing, getting the word out, normalizing this stuff. We have understand that an abnormal reaction to an abnormal event is normal behavior. That's from Viktor Frankl. He wrote the book Man's Search for Meaning. He survived Auschwitz. his message was, the Nazis took everything away from him, but they couldn't take his spirit.

Vernon Phillips (13:44.07)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (13:57.021)

Yep. Yep.

Matt Walsh (13:59.672)

So as long as we know who we are, our spiritual side, our spirit stays with us, and we can forgive ourselves, then we can get through pretty much anything. But an abnormal reaction to an abnormal event is normal behavior. So what you're doing is great because we're normalizing stuff that we have to go through.

Vernon Phillips (14:18.511)

Yeah, and there's so many of his quotes that you can pull out and you can use, know, I mean, you know, the the moment that suffering ceases to be suffering, right? You know, then it finds purpose and, you know, just all of those where, you know, in between stimulus and response, there's a space, right? And then that sponsors is our freedom to choose. And, you know, that's what we're trying to like instill back into people is like, look, you know,

Matt Walsh (14:39.982)

That's right.

Vernon Phillips (14:45.486)

It's like you can, you can get through this stuff, right? It's going to be a struggle. It might be hard, but you you can, you can get on the other side and you know, it might take some work. might take you kind of, you know, digging in and, changing that mindset. But, um, you know, that, uh, there's not very many people that I have on here that start, you know, throwing out, uh, Victor Franco quotes and things like that. So that's, that's neat. Cause I, I'll use those a lot in service training. I'll throw.

Matt Walsh (14:56.27)

That's right.

Matt Walsh (15:09.998)

Hahaha

Vernon Phillips (15:14.604)

I'll throw one in there here and there. And, you know, and he, and he, the one you referred to is like, you know, he says that, you know, that what they can't take from me is how I respond to what you do to me. Right. And when we start thinking about that, it's like, we have a choice. Right. And I was just explaining this to my, 10 year old the other day, my daughter. so look, we have a choice, you know, and, they're, they're, they're, it's hard.

Matt Walsh (15:27.768)

That's right. That's right.

Vernon Phillips (15:44.384)

Both ways is hard, right? Controlling our emotions, controlling how we respond is hard, right? That's hard, but on the on the offset of that, you know, it makes things a little bit easier because, you know, you were able to control your emotions, control your the way you respond to the things. then, you know, things are a little bit easier on the other side of that. Or you can do what's easier and just let your emotions take hold of you and, know, and just respond in those.

Matt Walsh (15:50.488)

Yep. Yep.

Vernon Phillips (16:14.136)

But then generally the consequences out of that are hard. So we have that choice. We choose our hard. It's hard to invest into, to learn new ways to cope with things and deal with things. And that's hard to work through that. But on the off side of that, it's much better in the long run. Or we can just choose to do what's easier and not talk about it and stuff it down and stow it. But it's going to come back.

When it comes back, it's generally going to be harder. Yeah.

Matt Walsh (16:43.03)

And when we stow it, oftentimes it comes back as anger. And the quote I use when I see people that are just angry at everything. And I say to them, said, anger is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies. So you can be angry at someone, but it has no effect on them. They are going on their journey. But you're hurting yourself by holding that anger. So like you said,

Vernon Phillips (17:07.278)

Yeah, and I think that

Matt Walsh (17:11.874)

being able to make a choice, whether it's forgiveness or just forgiveness for yourself. Having grace for yourself or just holding onto the anger can help you bounce back and be more productive.

Vernon Phillips (17:27.852)

A lot of people don't understand, like when we start talking about forgiveness, they're like, well, you don't understand what they've done. And that is true, right? There's cases where we just do not, like we don't know the hurt that's there. But what a lot of people don't understand is that forgiveness has more to do with you and your own growth than it has to do with the other person. You know, because the longer you hold on to that, just, it's, it's just festering. It's just, you know, it just grows and it just has that deep-breeded

Matt Walsh (17:46.51)

That's right.

Matt Walsh (17:52.558)

That's right.

Vernon Phillips (17:55.97)

you know, deep rooted seed in you. And eventually it's just going to, it's just going to affect everything. You know, it's just, it's like a cancer that just grows and eventually you're going to have to do something about it. So it's

Matt Walsh (18:04.334)

That's right.

Yeah. And it's not an easy lesson to learn. And I'm sure as we move on in this, you'll hear an example of how, and I'll share how angry I was, and it took me years to forgive myself.

Vernon Phillips (18:12.066)

No.

Vernon Phillips (18:23.383)

Yeah, so I mean we could sit here and just go on like this but to you know, obviously the law enforcement profession is a hard profession, right? And I'm sure there's a lot of things that you've experienced throughout your career. So, you know, what is something if you want to share that, you know, was a particularly a hard, you know, maybe call for service or an incident or critical incident you went through, you know, and then how did you get on the other side of that? Because, you know, that's what we really want to promote is like, hey,

Matt Walsh (18:46.595)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (18:50.119)

Yeah, you may have had a really rough call or critical incident, but you can get on the other side of that. That's what we want to promote, right? We want to promote that ability to talk and share.

Matt Walsh (19:00.78)

No, that's a great question. As you know, to choose one event can be difficult because we go through so much. We go through so much trauma that it can be difficult to say, it's this one. But you always remember your first or maybe your second, right? So that's my third year in as a deputy sheriff and I was looking for a murder suspect with my team and turned into a foot chase. You know, someone throwing a gun and then a fight, a serious fight. And then the suspect ended up crushing me between his car and the police car twice. He crushed me twice. I couldn't move and I was knocked out. was out. I came to

Vernon Phillips (19:35.026)

.

Matt Walsh (19:57.984)

My partners were shooting at the suspect. a riot started, prolonged riot, and they ended up taking us both to the same hospital, which is another riot. But this is in 2000. This is, mean, and I can still remember every, up to the point I was knocked out, I can remember how it went, was slow motion, we hear about that, had auditory exclusion, all that kind of stuff. And I didn't think, so fast forward, both got out of the hospital, he lived, was charged with attempted murder. I lived, severe injuries to my body. But, you know, when you go through something like that, all of sudden, there are three different investigations. There's the internal investigation the criminal investigation of him trying to kill me, and then the criminal investigation into the response to resistance when my partner shot at him and hit him. They hit him once. Now all of sudden, no one talks to you. So you talk about being isolated and insulated, and that's what happened. Except for one guy who's brand new to the agency. called me, said, you don't know me. I just want to see how you're doing.

And I still remember his name. remember him, followed his career. He's doing great. But I'll never forget that because that was the only call I got after the immediate aftermath. So I didn't know if I could do the job again. I questioned myself. we talked about the should have, would have, could have. I should have done this. I could have done that. I would have done that. And then I felt responsible for putting my partners in that position. I felt like it was my fault that happened.

So all that crept in, know, nightmares, sound sights, all the classic symptoms of post-traumatic stress. So, went back to work a couple months later, wasn't sure if I could do it. I got into the next fight and I realized, I can still do this. And I was still a SWAT operator at the time and all while it's going through the, all while it's going through the criminal justice process.

Matt Walsh (22:23.278)

I'm still working, know, it takes, as you know, a year, year and a for something like this to be resolved. And, you know, was involved in many, many more critical incidents after that, shootings, suicides, watching people kill themselves. So all that layer is on. And then at trial, he was found not guilty by a jury. was found guilty of resisting with violence and marijuana possession but not guilty of the crime that would have sentenced him to, if not life, 25 years. So then there's the sense of betrayal. Sense of betrayal from whether it's the agency or the community or the judge or the criminal justice system. And that's what I was talking about, the anger, right? And I was angry at the suspect. I was angry at the judge. I was angry at the defense attorney who made me look like I was somebody that I wasn't.

And I held on to the anger for a long time. And again, staying connected to my faith and my wife, we didn't have kids at that time. It took a long time. It took a long time. But really, when I was forgiving, I was forgiving myself because I had to realize I was doing the best I could at the time with the information I had. And that's something very difficult to get to it sometimes takes a long time. But I was eventually able to do that and for many years I couldn't talk about the incident without it bringing up this response, this emotional, physical response. But whether it's through faith and through forgiveness and through therapy, now I speak about it a lot. And every time I speak about it, it's better for me because I'm getting it out.

I train around the state. I've spoken about this incident in detail around the country. And now because of the work I've put in to myself, I'm able to speak about it and hopefully help others get there faster than it took me to get there. And again, having grace, forgiving myself, understanding I did the best I could with the information I had at the time. So again, that takes a long time.

Matt Walsh (24:45.096)

But then you have to remember all the other stuff that piles on top of that, that we have to empty out our bucket. If we don't empty it out, it's going to overflow or it'll lead to, you know, risky, increased risky behaviors, addictions or substance misuse or anger or, you know, treating people badly. You know, I just had a talk with the new recruits for, I'm going say new recruits, new agents to FDLE, but they're all seasoned officers and my counterpart said no one wants to work for a jerk and when I spoke I said I want clothes on I was that jerk I said I was not successful in my career until I took a self-assessment and on a self-assessment and looked at myself and said what am I doing good and what am I doing bad and until I worked at myself I was stuck but as soon as I worked myself my career opened up

and I had all these different experiences.

Vernon Phillips (25:46.212)

Yeah, and I think that's big key factor in this is being able to work through, know, that whatever that incident is or those cumulative incidents and then being able to share that so that it prompts other people to be able to do the same.

Matt Walsh (26:02.894)

Yeah, it is. And that's why, know, and I'll get into it maybe a little later, but what we're doing, what FDA is doing on a statewide level is we're having retreats called post-critical incident seminars for anybody in law enforcement and their partner, life partner, partner of work, spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend. It's free, charged. But I go to every one. And I share that story with them because, again, normalizing it but also saying, we are all different, different agencies, different names, different sexes, ethnicities, races, but we're common because we share trauma. We all have been through trauma. And so I just wanna make sure they know that they're not alone and that it's normal to have these byproducts of that trauma.

Vernon Phillips (26:55.603)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's a lot to unpack. mean, then, you know, anytime you share one of those, those experiences, you know, it's always, you know, it's always kind of gets a little heavy. you know, so I like to kind of follow it up with, you know, so what's one of the funniest or most awkward, you know, calls or experiences that you've had while in the career?

Matt Walsh (27:19.182)

So I'm not a native Floridian. I'm from Boston. The most wild animal I saw growing up was maybe a raccoon or a squirrel. So coming out of Florida, and particularly southwest Florida, all the different insects and animals. But I was still relatively new, and I was walking out to my personal vehicle, and there was an alligator under my back tire.

I can see the body and the tail sticking out. And I'm like, nope, I'm not going near that. And then I look around the corner, there's my sergeant and a couple of my partners. They laughed because they found a dead alligator and they put it under my tire to like watch my reaction. I'll always remember that. That was like, okay, they've accepted me in Florida and I still didn't touch it. That made them touch it. But at the same time, was funny.

Vernon Phillips (28:09.997)

Yeah. There's always some of those stories that happen when you're the new person or when somebody figures out that there's something that you're maybe not too keen on or maybe you're scared of spiders or something like that. There's always somebody who ends up trying to work a fake spider or a fake snake or

Matt Walsh (28:34.883)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (28:35.606)

a dead alligator into, you know, to get your reaction.

Matt Walsh (28:37.87)

It's all these animals with me. It was all the animals. I remember going to a car, a cow in the middle of the road, like at midnight. And I got there and there's the cow and a native Floridian, another deputy, she asked me if it was a boy or girl. said, well, it's a boy. She goes, how do you know? said, it has horns. And of course everyone laughed. Cause I thought if you had horns, you were a boy, but I was, that's another learning experience for me with, with livestock.

Vernon Phillips (29:09.385)

Yeah. So, you when we look at law enforcement, you know, we know that it's a demanding, you know, profession. We know that it takes a toll on individuals. you know, but we also know that there can be some learning factors in it, too. So when you look over your career, know, what are some of the key things or the key factors that you've learned, you know, that you'd like to pass on to others?

Matt Walsh (29:35.704)

Yeah, you know, it goes back, it really goes back to the basic principles, I think. Again, learning process. Treat others, doesn't matter who they are. Treat them with respect as long as they're treating you with respect. I remember, you know, I arrested a couple. They both had crack cocaine when crack cocaine was a big thing. But I treated them with with dignity and respect. And I arrested him. About six months later, I'm in front of their house fighting a guy. It was just me and him. Now the couple was there, but I'm fighting somebody else that was at their house. And I lost, during the fight, my radio, so I couldn't call for help. My OC spray, when I sprayed him, he grabbed it and threw it.

So I was down to my ass and my gun. And the fight was, you know, as fights go, they're quick, but this was a longer quick fight, I guess. And the couple, they helped me. The wife called 911 and the husband helped me handcuff him. And so I've always told, I tell my kids, but I also told the younger cops. So you never know who's gonna be your ally, your advocate. So if...when you can always treat people with dignity and respect because you never know when they may be there to help you. So that's one of the biggest lessons I learned very quickly, but I think it goes back to faith, right? mean, we're called to treat people with respect, even when they may fight us. And when I got this guy handcuffed and he was off to jail and, you know it goes back to treating them with respect. Because we don't know, it's not our job to know what's going on in their lives, but it's our job to always behave and act accordingly. So that's one. I think another thing is never stop learning. Never stop working on yourself. Read. Not just the statute book, because that's what I did when I first started, but read.

Matt Walsh (31:59.672)

try to expand your mind, expand your horizons, and challenge yourself to learn something new. Because if you're so stuck on thinking one way, you won't be open to new ideas. So always learn, always challenge yourself to learn. And then take calculated risks. I've said it to the newer agents. Tallahassee is my, I think, fifth move for FDLE. And it seemed like every however many years depending on where my station was, but we moved and had wonderful support from my wife and my kids. If you're willing to take those calculator risks and challenge yourself, you'll have a great career. And that's what I tell, that's what I tell, that's my advice to everyone coming into the profession.

Vernon Phillips (32:50.442)

Yeah, and you those are all those are three good key points to you know, for anybody to just take hold of and instill no matter where they're at in their profession. I mean, you they could be just coming in or, know, they could even be 15, 20, 25 years in and start to look at retirement, but you can still learn. can still you know, you can still treat people with respect, right? You can still, you know, learn and grow and educate yourself and, know, and

especially, you you can look at those and take those calculated risks, just like you said, I mean, and that, but that's. Calculated risk. It's not just, you know, a, you know, off the, the cough or whatever. So those are great, you know, key points to focus in on. And with that, mean, obviously, you know, with your position, you do a lot with obviously, you know, wellness and wellbeing with, with your guys. So.

Across the board, new recruits, academies, do you think we're doing enough to really prepare them for the profession, for the job?

Matt Walsh (34:01.4)

So I think meeting the basic requirements, we're hitting the mark. I'm very proud in where Florida stands among the country with the way we lean into new ideas or lean into the requirements we have in the academy or the state exam. Where I think it falls off is when they get into wherever they're working.

And it's the nature of the job that you get so busy the focus becomes a job and you end up neglecting yourself so we need to my my my wish my thought is We need to expand the mental health Professionals into every organization and You know money listen money is

Vernon Phillips (34:39.314)

Yeah.

Matt Walsh (35:00.322)

it all comes down to finances, unfortunately. But in perfect world, we would have therapists in every agency to provide that care that's needed. And then we could have physical trainers, fitness trainers in every agency to make sure we're complementing the two sides. But the biggest stressor I see, the biggest challenge I see is lack of therapy, lack of therapists that are competent to treat us. So that's what, again, FDALE, what we're doing on a statewide level, in addition to the post-curriculum incidence seminar, and really what that is, that's a three-day retreat, and during that three-day retreat, it's peer-driven. So we train the peers, they're from all different agencies, they come in, and the participants come in with their partners or spouses.

Immediately they're given some psychological tools so we can see where they're at, whether it's PTSD, depression or anxiety. But it's peer driven. So right away, peers, so people just like them who've been through similar instances, they're making that connection. We talked about connection earlier. And then over the three days they're provided psycho education. So they're provided with information of you know, why you're angry. Well, you might have a traumatic brain injury. If you ever have a concussion, that's a traumatic brain injury and that affects the brain differently. they're talking, you know, then the psychological effects of our job are given to them. And then psychotherapy. So you had some great modalities. CPT, CBT, EMDR. We use what's called accelerated resolution therapy or ART. And it's based on eye movement.

So it's similar to EMDR because of eye movement or tapping, but ART has been proven to work quicker than EMDR. So it's more efficacious quicker. It's been studied down range overseas with special operators where they'll go off and do what they do and they come back as a therapist that provides them ART right then and there. So cleans out the bad stuff. So all of our therapists that we use

Matt Walsh (37:19.724)

They are veteran and law enforcement competent. So they know what they're doing. We provide that therapy and then we give them collaborative care. So to help build up therapists that are competent, FDLE does a two day training called Law Enforcement Culture for Clinicians. It's a two day training. The first day's lecture, we just put police officers in front of them and they discuss their career.

So it's unfiltered, they discuss what they've been through so the therapist can hear how we talk, how we share our stories. And then the second day, they're put into two different scenarios. One's a shoot-don't-shoot simulator. And then the second scenario is we make them part of an active shooting situation. It's as close to real life as we can get using blanks and role players and fake blood and.

So that gives them a look into our profession, which can ultimately help them better understand us. Because one of the biggest complaints I've heard from law enforcement professionals is that the therapist wasn't ready to hear what that person had to share, and we traumatized the therapist. So we're trying to reverse the trend of we're getting cops ready and corrections officers ready, and then we give them nothing when they get out of the academy until they're in crisis.

Vernon Phillips (38:22.434)

Yeah.

Matt Walsh (38:46.062)

So we're trying to provide resources that gives them support from beginning, all the way through their careers, and actually post-career. We just held our fourth PCIS. It was for command staff members, captains and above. We'll have four more this year. For the fiscal year of 25-26, we're hoping to do eight, and then 16 the following year. Because...

Every PCIS is full and we have a list. So the need is there. People may not say they need it, but they want to get to it because of how it's working. And so that's what I think we need to do better. The Academy is great with getting them ready, with teaching them the skills they need, but then there's a gap until they're in crisis. And we need to them before they're in that crisis.

Vernon Phillips (39:16.846)

Yeah. Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (39:39.056)

Yeah, and that's a huge, you know, that's a huge thing that we see across the board, right, is just kind of that lack of, hey, this is the job, we know this is job, this is what affects you, this is how it affects you. Here are some tools for you to be able to invest back in yourself to kind of keep this stuff in check.

And I'm pretty fortunate in my agency and with our leadership that they give me the ability to focus in on that. And to speak into them for just that, to keep that forefront in their minds.

Matt Walsh (40:14.926)

Yeah, and you know, I think, you know, if you look at the way Florida is built and the way, you know, 60 now 67 sheriffs, which is very exciting. I love that all 67, we have 67 now, but then 400 and something municipalities, you know, in with the sheriff's offices, typically being the biggest agency in that area, you know, could we take what you do at your agency kind of replicate that around the state, then we have regional, know, regional response groups to include therapists. So, you know, I know where you are, let's say a small police department, they don't have the resources, but we have regional people between your agency and some other agencies and therapists that we can send there and provide that support to the smaller, less fiscally...

Vernon Phillips (40:53.114)

Yeah.

Matt Walsh (41:14.508)

well, fiscally constrained, more fiscally constrained agencies, you know.

Vernon Phillips (41:16.073)

Yeah. Yeah, no, that makes sense. I mean, that would be a great program for those smaller agencies that don't have those resources that maybe they want to be able to invest like that, but they just don't have the resources, don't have the funds to do that. Because to be able to start that and to kind of bring that into

Matt Walsh (41:33.539)

Right.

Vernon Phillips (41:39.098)

your agency, your department, that requires forward thinking on the administration's part, but also the ability to bring those resources in, right? And to cover that fiscal cost that it does incur.

Matt Walsh (41:54.67)

Yeah, for sure. And it's a heavy lift. I when comes down to money, you know, that's what's unfortunate is you look on the return on investment side, you look at the financial side of things. And a lot of times wellness is put down the bottom because there are other critical things that need to be funded. But I'd submit that wellness is critical because if we have a healthy member, a healthy officer, a healthy deputy, a civilian, there'll be less

Vernon Phillips (41:58.828)

Yep.

Vernon Phillips (42:14.032)

Yeah.

Matt Walsh (42:23.278)

sick time taken, less vacation time taken, less injuries reported, less medical bills because they won't need to see these doctors for whatever they're suffering from. maybe that's where we can kind of shift focus and say no wellness needs to be maybe not the top priority but maybe towards the top because a healthier employee is a better employee.

Vernon Phillips (42:46.146)

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. mean, wellness is an important factor in just the law enforcement professional's life. yes, having a wellness program, having wellness resources costs money. But so do lawsuits, right? And you think about, yeah.

Matt Walsh (43:04.172)

That's right. That's right. And a suicide. mean, if someone kills themselves, that costs the agency hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. And you hate to put a cost on it. But you save one life, you're saving over a million dollars. Simple as that.

Vernon Phillips (43:21.954)

Yeah, I mean, you know, if you put, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars into a program and it saves one life, then it was successful. Right. Then it was absolutely successful. Absolutely.

Matt Walsh (43:28.344)

Yep. Yep, that's right.

Matt Walsh (43:34.126)

So I would like to touch on the suicide aspect. So there's a lot of nonprofits that do a great job trying to report the accurate number of law enforcement suicide, law enforcement corrections and probation, active and former of that class suicides around the country. And I've always seen every year for the whole country, all 50 states, it's around 170, 180, maybe 160.

And then in Florida, it's always hovering between 12 to 14. So last year, we have a research group here at FDA. We said, hey, is there a way to really focus on law enforcement corrections of probation and suicide? Current and former, and accurately reported. And that was my only question to them. I said, can we do it?

And they went back and there are PhDs and people that think that kind of research. And they came back with a methodology where it's the most accurate reported anywhere in the country. And they did a three-year test, so 21, 22, and 23. And it was like 41, 44, and 48. So it was an average of 44 per year for those three years. And I was like, wow, that's shocking. That's...

Vernon Phillips (44:56.422)

.

Matt Walsh (44:57.55)

triples, sometimes quadruples of what's being reported. So they went back and now they're doing a formal research project. They went back and did a 10 year study. A 10 year study of officer corrections and probation, LEO suicide for 10 years. For the past 10 years, Florida has had 444 known suicides among that population. Again, 44 a year, one every eight days. So if we're not unique,

If Florida is not unique to the country and we're four times close to four times the amount of what's previously been reported, what does the real numbers look like around the country? You know, and I think that Florida is willing to be the lead researcher for the whole country. And that's what the team's working on. But I would suggest that if we can do an accurate number of suicides every year,

Vernon Phillips (45:38.93)

Yeah.

Matt Walsh (45:57.486)

through the country, that will get the attention of everyone and we can start approaching this topic much differently because it will be an epidemic.

Vernon Phillips (46:05.759)

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there's something that I, this is my own personal thought, but, you know, the reason I believe that the suicide stay the way they are state, you know, at the number they are is because, you know, the individuals, they feel isolated, right?

They feel like no one else is going through or experienced or dealt with what they're dealing with. Right. Obviously everybody deals with things differently. Right. But because we don't, you know, highlight this stuff, because, you know, we, we encourage and we, you know, indoctrinate our new recruits to not say anything. Right. And to kind of keep it in and just stow it because, you know, FTO doesn't say anything and

Matt Walsh (46:32.184)

Yep.

Vernon Phillips (46:48.222)

You know, the new recruit doesn't say anything because the FTO is not saying anything. so they feel isolated. And the other thing is the devil's a liar. Right. He's going to capitalize on your hopelessness and your despair. And he's going to feed those lies. And the other thing is people don't understand. You know, lot of the significance or the decisions around suicide, right? You hear it all the time. They're like, well, how could this person be so selfish or how could this person do this? You know, don't they know that the ripple effect that this has on their family and their friends and yeah, well, some of that may be true, but what they don't understand is all that person wants is for the pain to stop, right? Or the trauma to stop, whatever it is that's that's you know, that's manifesting, that's that driving factor. They just want it to stop. And for them in that moment, that is the most logical decision for them.

Now for us on the outside we look at it. We're like, well, that's right It's it's not logical, but whether we have to understand that for that individual at that moment in time They're in so much, you know distress that it's like this is the most logical decision this is the best course for me and you know that then they decide to take their life and you know, so when I hear that I try to like hey hold on like Okay, there's there might be a little bit of truth in there, but you have to consider the factors involved. You have to consider the current state of the individual involved and what their thought process is because they're in crisis. So we can't expect them to think reasonably or accurately in those situations. And I think that that's something that we do still in the first responder community just across the board. That I think is unfair to those who are struggling with those suicidal thoughts and those ideations because there's just not that understanding of really what they're going through.

Matt Walsh (48:51.914)

And you you hit on the hopelessness. The suicide triangle is hopelessness, helplessness, and worthlessness. And when that triangle is completed, the likelihood of a suicide is increased exponentially. But the other thing you touched on is guilt and shame, right? You know, when you isolate, when someone's isolated and insulated, and they're getting all the negative automatic thoughts and...

Vernon Phillips (48:57.294)

Yep.

Matt Walsh (49:21.55)

then the guilt of shame comes in. I feel guilt because I didn't do this, and ashamed because I embarrassed, I brought embarrassment to my family and all that combined leads to suicide. And in particular, know, and then the way we have reacted to suicide among law enforcement members brings in more of guilt and shame. Well, if I do it, no one's gonna love me. So again, that's the whole aspect to it. But if we can tie the suicide back to an injury that happened on the job, I think that passed a couple years ago, it could be considered a line of duty death now, federally. There's still no money benefits with it. But that's the other thing we need to look at is brain injury. Traumatic brain injury, signs and symptoms are reminiscent almost the same as PTSD. people may say, well, that person, they got PTSD. Well, they may, but have they had a concussion? they angry? Is their anger out of control? Because if they have a traumatic brain injury, they may have to think about chronic traumatic encephalopathy or CTE that we saw in the football players. They kill themselves because their brain was eating itself.

I lectured around the country on some research I did looking at TBIs within law enforcement. And now the Brain Bank, Concussion Legacy Foundation in Boston, in Boston University, they are taking first response brains to research, do we have CTE within the law enforcement profession? Again, that might shed some light on why we have semi-suicides. Is it brain injury? And if it is,

Vernon Phillips (51:13.619)

Yeah. Yeah, and are you familiar with the Haley Brain Wellness Institute out of Jacksonville?

Matt Walsh (51:14.828)

Now we know a better way to go after and treat that person.

Matt Walsh (51:28.694)

No, tell me about it.

Vernon Phillips (51:29.914)

So they do a lot of work with TBIs with veterans and now first responders. they will actually, it's all covered under a grant. So if it's somebody who potentially has had any type of head injury, head trauma, they would be able to go through and do their initial 3A assessment. And then depending on what that looks like, if they...

Matt Walsh (51:40.12)

So what?

Vernon Phillips (51:55.246)

they're like, Hey, yes, you know, you do have a TBI and they can be brought in for a, um, you know, a three week intensive inpatient that they'll work through. And that's all covered under a grant and it's only veterans and law enforcement and they go there. And, uh, so actually, you know, I've gone up there and I've toured their facility. Um, it's, really well done. It's really well put together. And then I actually, um, because I want to know, like, Hey, if I'm going to send somebody, I want to know what it's like. So I actually put myself through.

Matt Walsh (52:22.146)

Yeah. Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (52:24.97)

their three-day assessment. know, and they take you through a whole different, you know, battery of exams and they do, you know, they do all, they do physical therapy, they do speech therapy, you know, they do, you know, different, you know, they do a neuro, they do a neurophysical, assessment on you to where they measure it. So you've got your physical therapy portion, but then they also do a neural feedback where it's like, okay, well, how is your brain, you know, communicating with the rest of your body? Right? Is there any delay? Is there any lag because of a potential of a TBI? So it's not just like one component. Then if you meet the criteria and they say, yes, you would benefit from our you know, are intensive, then you go back and then they have all kinds of different modalities that you go through, right? You'll actually sit down, you know, with a psychologist, you know, you'll go and you'll sit down with the neurophysical therapist, you'll sit down with, you know, the speech therapist, but they've got, you know, art therapy, you know, they'll do acupuncture, they'll do all kinds of different modalities that they will work in and they've got a lot of good really success rates. So, they've had individuals come in, you know, that are veterans that come in limping, right? Because they've got some type of injury. And then when they leave, you know, they're not limping anymore. And I know it sounds kind of like, you know, is it the, you know, the magic potion? And it's like, well, no, it's because they figured out that there was a, you know, there was a block between, you know, the neural processing of their brain and their physical body. Right. And

Matt Walsh (53:53.08)

Yeah.

Matt Walsh (54:12.888)

Sure. Yeah, he says the Haley Brain Institute.

Vernon Phillips (54:15.894)

And they were able to work through that. Yes, it's the Haley Brayden Institute.

Matt Walsh (54:21.08)

Yeah, I'm going to look that up. That'd be a great resource for us to refer people to. And I know I wouldn't be surprised if they use hyperbaric chamber as well to get the brain oxygenated and help it heal itself. That's amazing. Thanks for letting me know that.

Vernon Phillips (54:32.312)

Yeah, yep, yep, yeah. And I was really pleased. They take really good care of you and everything is done well. So, I mean, we're getting close to being able to wrap up here, but before we finish up, as you look back over your career, where you're at now,

Matt Walsh (54:45.378)

Great, yeah, I'm gonna look into that for sure.

Vernon Phillips (54:56.206)

How much is you know your faith played a factor into where you're at today?

Matt Walsh (55:00.344)

You know, I smile because I still remember when, because I've been really into my faith. I've wandered, I've come back, and I remember talking to my pastor and I said, you know, I Father, I haven't been around a while. He's like, that's okay, as long as you come back. And the faith is what grounds me, it what gives me peace.

It reminds me why I'm doing what I'm doing. And that's why, that's one of the reasons why I continue doing this. Because I have to. This is what I'm supposed to do. And that also helps me get to, to build resilience or to get to that forgiveness that I talked about earlier because whatever I've gone through is because I'm supposed to go through it. Because growth is uncomfortable. it's, you know, picture a seedling reaching through the soil reaching for the sun, and man, that's gonna be really uncomfortable. For us to grow, we have to be uncomfortable. And I think whether...

Vernon Phillips (56:06.718)

Yeah.

Matt Walsh (56:26.252)

the stuff like I said, physical or emotional, spiritual things I've been through, it's been really hard. But it helps me get to acceptance faster and builds resilience because I said, okay, you know, this was hard, this was tough, I'm supposed, this is my journey. And that's where a strong faith keeps me grounded because things we deal with, and I'm sure you've dealt with it at your agencies, moral, spiritual, moral injury. When we lose faith, that can be some of the hardest injury to come back from because when we lose it, how do you find it again? And when we lose it, then we lose control of what we're doing. So that's why faith to me is at the forefront. If I didn't have faith, I wouldn't be in this job anymore. I wouldn't be able to do it.

Vernon Phillips (56:57.646)

Yeah.

Matt Walsh (57:23.106)

and i wouldn't i wouldn't i still be angry i'd still hold resentment wouldn't be able to forgive faith gives me a cornerstone to be able to forgive move on and build resiliency and get to accept all things that have happened

Vernon Phillips (57:40.218)

Yeah, and I appreciate that. mean, you know, that's always a component that I always come back to and say, man, you know, don't know how you do the profession without without faith. So well, sir, I appreciate your time. I appreciate you, you know, just coming on here, sharing your insight, sharing your knowledge. And, know, we'll just continue pushing forward and making sure that our individuals and our people get the.

Matt Walsh (57:48.206)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (58:03.859)

the resources and help they need.

Matt Walsh (58:05.986)

Yeah, thank you, Vernon, and thank you for this opportunity. Thank you for your mission. I know you have a lot of other things going on, and for you to do this, this is another vocation. And I really appreciate you doing this and getting the word out and looking after the men and women that we serve that work for us. But by serving those who serve, they'll be better servants to the community. So thank you for what you do.

Vernon Phillips (58:26.33)

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I appreciate it. Thank you, sir.