Speaking Truth in Difficult Situations

In this conversation, Critical Aspects hosts Shaun Klucznik and Denise Schonwald to discuss the critical aspects of law enforcement, focusing on mental health, wellness, and the importance of support systems for officers and their families. They share personal experiences, insights on the challenges faced by law enforcement professionals, and the need for open discussions about mental health. The conversation emphasizes the significance of seeking help, maintaining balance in life, and the role of leadership in fostering a supportive environment.

Takeaways

• Mental health is crucial for officers to perform effectively.
• Seeking help is not a sign of weakness but a strength.
• Onboarding families into the law enforcement culture is essential.
• Physical health should be prioritized alongside mental health.
• Building relationships is key in leadership roles.
• There is life after law enforcement; it's important to seek help.
• Support systems are vital for first responders.

Shaun Klucznik

Email: ShaunK@aja.org

LinkedIn 

Transcript

Vernon Phillips (00:01.582)

Welcome back to Critical Aspects of Law Enforcement. I am your host Vernon Phillips. And today on this show, we've got a couple of guests that are going to jump on here. We're have a good conversation. But we've got Shaun and Denise. And I'm going to turn it over to them and let each of them just kind of explain who they are, a little bit about their background and kind of what they're doing right now in the law enforcement community. And then we're going to jump into it. So whoever wants to go first.

Shaun Klucznik (00:25.929)

All right, I'll jump in. My name Shaun Klusnik. I am the current president of the American Jail Association. I'm also a jail administrator for the Hernando County Sheriff's Office in Florida. I've been working in this career starting, actually Monday will be my 28th year in service. I worked 13 years in my prior agency, 15 years in my current agency. I was absolutely blessed about 15 years ago to come to Hernando. I was asked to help transition of jail from a private vendor into operations by the sheriff. I was recruited to come up and do that as lieutenant. And since then, I've had an amazing run. I got to play a few roles, including interim HR director for a while. got to play as a special operations lieutenant and special operations captain on the law enforcement side, and eventually was promoted into the jail administrator role as major back just over five years ago.

I just, about six weeks ago, got sworn in as the president of American Jail Association and it's been a great ride. Part of that ride was to, from my side was a big help was Denise Strongwald. She's gonna be on the show here with us. She really helped us, helped me and my family actually get through some stuff and I'm happy that she's here. It's gonna be a good conversation.

Vernon Phillips (01:50.21)

Thank you, Shaun.

Denise Schonwald (01:50.251)

I'm Denise Schoenwald and I'm a licensed mental health counselor practicing currently in Sarasota, Florida, and I'm also a former critical care nurse.

Vernon Phillips (02:08.046)

Well, Shaun and Denise, I'm glad to have you guys on. so, mean, Shaun, coming up on, you know, 28 years of service in the law enforcement profession, that's a lot of years. There's a lot of history there. There's a lot of stories there that I'm sure that, you know, we can kind of dive into. But I know specifically kind of the last five years you've been serving as that role as the major. And so we'd like to kind of just dive into that a little bit and get kind of some of your perspectives, you know, and speak to some of those who are currently still in the profession, and then some of those coming in and giving them some tips and some encouragement as they come in, but also just kind of hear some of the things that you've done throughout your career. So obviously, we know that the law enforcement profession, whether you work on the patrol side, whether you work on the detention side is a demanding job. It's a stressful job. It takes a toll on you as an individual. So what is it that you do, Shaun, that just...that keeps you physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually just balanced. Like what is it you do on a daily to kind of keep all those components in check?

Shaun Klucznik (03:14.281)

So early in my career, I didn't do a lot of things that were very beneficial. I ate a lot. At one point, got over 300 pounds physically, rarely did anything positive. I ignored my spiritual life, ignored any kind of good practice. I was a young, single deputy at the time. As you grow older and you develop relationships, and luckily for me, in my 15 years ago roughly I met my wife and it was the best thing that ever could have happened to me. Definitely settled things down. I I had got my spiritual life pretty sorted out by then. I was never a big exercise guy. Last time I was actually in decent shape was roughly three years ago when I got to go to the FBI and came back at the lightest weight I've been as an adult since then put 20 pounds back on but at least it's not 60.

It's been quite the ride, I think, in the jail setting. You know, you're going to see a lot of, it's going to be more cumulative stuff that builds in over the years and over the ships of pounding on concrete and always being at the height and set of awareness around, like I had a situation yesterday, one of my brand new deputies ended up in a tussle with an inmate and this was first one, you can see it. I got the, I saw the aftermath on camera. was watching it live.

And I was watching him really just like panting, know, that adrenaline dump happened and those rises and falls happened a lot in your career. And, you know, as you move up the ranks, the stress changes, you become more responsible for, mean, in jails you're always responsible for people, but then you become responsible for the people responsible for the people. And it keeps going up like that. I can tell you, I didn't realize until 2015 or so, that uh... i was doing some stuff personal life back in when was younger when i was eighteen years old uh... my father committed suicide my mom decided that she needed to leave that abusive relationship that she was in for all of her adult life uh... and he chose uh... way out that i wouldn't recommend uh... it was it was terrible i was eighteen years before any kind of training and and i thought for sure that when somebody

Shaun Klucznik (05:39.337)

uh... committed suicide back then they were they were going to tell anybody and so if you're talking about committed suicide it wasn't going to happen and he was giving us all the warnings he was you know for about two weeks after my mom left he was uh... actively talking about it he was saying I'm dumb enough he was actually threatening my stepdad ultimately became my stepdad he was threatening I'm going to go I'm going kill him I'm going to kill myself I was just knocking it off I like just please stop talking about it that's ridiculous don't talk about that and sure enough

About two weeks after this conversation started, in hindsight, you remember certain things. I was working at a grocery store in Land O' Lakes, Florida, and my sister was working there too. She was a cashier. was one of the junior managers, basically. And my dad came in and he bought a, what was weird was he bought a six pack of beer, not a 12 pack of beer, because he used to polish off a 12 pack in a sitting, he only bought six. So they probably should have realized something was off then, but I remember he...checking out. was there just standing around while he was checking out. My sister was the cashier and I remember him telling my sister's boyfriend at the time saying take good care of my daughter and I'm like what? It was weird and he goes to leave me and he's and he didn't say I'll see you tomorrow. He's like you know I'm proud of you. It was one of those goodbye moments. I didn't realize what was happening until the next morning and I was

Awoken by what I thought was a box fan falling over sounded like a box fan on the floor falling over we lived in a double-y trailer at the time and and I thought I heard a fan fall over and all of a the phone started ringing and It was seven o'clock in the morning. It was what is going on? So I finally got up the phone rang and rang and rang I finally got up and answered it was my mom and she says Shaun get your get your sister and get out of the house And I was pretty mad at her at the time. I didn't know what was going on. I was like

I don't need to listen to you, I'm 18 years old, I know better than you. And I said, nah, I'm gonna go back to sleep. She goes, no, just get your sister and get out of the house. I go, I don't know why you'd want me to do that. And she says, get your sister, get out of the house, your dad's on the phone, he says he has a gun. I said, all right, I guess I'll listen to you. So I woke my sister up and grabbed the dog and we went outside. My first interaction with the first law enforcement agency I went to work for, ultimately, was that.

Shaun Klucznik (08:02.793)

That night or that morning when they arrived to clear the house and I in hindsight realized what the questions they were asking and why they were asking them but the sergeant that was there was like, who's in the house? I don't know who's in the house. I said, my dad's car's here. I can't verify he's in the house. I don't know if he's in there. And he goes, how do you not know if he's in there if you just came out of there? I said, I got a phone call and was told to go outside. I don't know. Is the back door unlocked? I really don't know. I came out the front door and he was frustrated with me. He thought I was being a wise guy.

I definitely wasn't, I just didn't have good answers. So they cleared the house. They cleared the house actually pretty quickly and then the same person, same sergeant came up to me and asked me, he said, how old are you? I I'm 18. said, can you come identify a body? Oh, okay, sure. So I went in and identified my father who looked like he was in middle of a snore, dead on his bed. And so that was my introduction to CIT, I guess, and law enforcement.

Vernon Phillips (08:34.723)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (08:58.51)

Mmm.

Shaun Klucznik (09:01.543)

So years later, that was 1997 or 96. So years and years later, was not until I worked in my next agency where we were up in Boston where I grew up, in case you can't see all that propaganda behind me, and I'm a huge Patriots fan, and I could turn the camera and make him really bore everybody, but there's more. Anyway, I went to Boston to, our jail had achieved American Correctional Association certification. So we were going up there to get...our certification and our award and we were up there basically to celebrate our professional achievement and you know, I grew up there. while we were there, I decided to take the rental car after hours and drove through the old neighborhoods and was looking around and couldn't believe how much changed in just a short amount of time and my neighborhood looked totally different, but I was able to get around without GPS and remember how to get around those streets and it was pretty cool. I thought it was cool and I came home.

And for a few weeks, I was just off, you know, and thank God for my wife. And Lindsay, she literally at one point says, what's wrong with you? And I said, you know what, I don't know. And she says, you're off and you seem depressed and I want you to go talk to somebody. So first of all, I realized that that was a good marriage, right? She was willing to call me out and demand that I go do something about it.

Short story long, that's how I found Denise. I got to meet Denise and started seeing her. I'll tell you this, Denise is phenomenal. I've recommended her to many of my friends, family, coworkers. I mean, and I don't know who's gotten to see her. No clue. That's the best part. She's come and done roll call training for us. She's done it, I think, I believe on the jail side and the law enforcement side. And she's willing to...answer the phone anytime it rings and she's been exactly what I needed because I didn't need somebody to coddle me. I needed her to tell me the truth and realize that you're by denying things or trying to compartmentalize them or just forget them, it doesn't work. You have to talk through it and you got to work through it and Denise's technique is sometimes boot in the rear end and I love it. It was exactly what I needed and she's been a great friend ever since.

Shaun Klucznik (11:26.045)

The best part about her, is I'll let her jump in a little bit, is she's always there no matter what. She's willing to help, she's always offering time. She'd absolutely come to probably any law enforcement scene and within driving distance to her to provide those services. She loves cops, she loves everybody who works in criminal justice, first responders, and she's been awesome.

Vernon Phillips (11:50.434)

Man, there's a whole lot in that story that we could dive into. I'm sure Denise is aware of that too. Denise, you kind of just, I mean, obviously you know Shaun, you know his background and obviously you've been working with him for a little while now. But when you kind of see him and his story, is that something that you get regularly when you deal with first responders, law enforcement, just kind of this?

I don't want to say unwillingness to address the things that they're facing or their struggles, but we see that. We see a lot of law enforcement, a lot of first responders, they don't want to go see somebody. They don't want to go talk to somebody because unfortunately there is still that apprehension there that, if I go talk to somebody, means I'm weak, right? It means that I'm not able to do the job. means, and they fill in the blank with whatever excuse they have not to go and seek the help that they need.

Denise Schonwald (12:49.877)

Yes, certainly. And when we're in a profession such as law enforcement or corrections, and even with what I had as being a critical care nurse, we're taught that this is part of the job and that you need to learn how to deal with it. And yes, it's stressful and yes, you see trauma, but you're just supposed to sort of suck it up and handle it. And yet we don't realize that this really takes a toll on us, particularly over the years, not only our own history, but things that we witness out in the field.

Vernon Phillips (13:20.086)

Yeah. Yeah. I think that there's this idea that, once you get into law enforcement, you know, whatever, whatever, you know, area it is that you're plugging yourself into that, you you stop being human, right? That you stop having those human emotions. You stop having, you know, normal human responses to those abnormal situations that you come in contact with because, you know, you're responding to, you know, so many different calls for services or

You know, if you're working behind the wire, you know, you're, you're stuck in there for 12 hours a day, with the same individuals and they're in there for, you know, various things, you know, could be, you know, driving without a license to, to murder. Right. So there's, there's all kinds of things that you're dealing with and it's, there's just this expectation. Hey, just, just turn it off. Right. Just cut it out. You know, this, you don't show any emotions anymore. And that's.

That's kind of how we do, that's how we do the job. But just because you jump into this profession doesn't mean that human emotions stop, right? It doesn't mean that that's not gonna be something that eventually wells up and can become uncontrollable because we kind of put ourselves into that position where we allow ourselves to get to that point where they really manifest into other things. So when you look at the law enforcement community and the first responder community,

You know Denise, what is something that you think that we need to be doing better at as far as you're taking care of our people?

Denise Schonwald (14:54.701)

Well, think one of the things is certainly encouraging officers and correctional officers to go for help. If I'm not brought in for an in-service, rarely do I get a call from law enforcement or corrections that somebody needs help. Typically, if I get anything, it's usually couples counseling. And that's sort of when the marriage is on the brink and now they're sort of being forced to go. But rarely do I get somebody that just calls and said, listen, I need somebody to talk to which is, I think, very unfortunate.

Vernon Phillips (15:27.362)

Yeah, and the unfortunate thing you said, I've seen a trend here more recently is you said when they do come in, they come in for couples counseling, right? It's like those of us in the law enforcement community, first responder community in general, we put ourselves in these positions to where we just isolate, isolate, isolate, isolate, right? We isolate our significant other, our spouses and to the point where eventually we end up either in some type of couples counseling or in divorce because you've completely alienated that person. And I just had a conversation just last week with an individual and she was talking about, man, if I would have known what I know now, she just recently went through a class just kind of learning about law enforcement, learning about ways to interact with peers and just some of the things that come up and some of the things you deal with.

And she's married to a cop and she's like, if I would have known what I know now, I would have responded to so many things differently. She's like, 15 years being married to somebody in law enforcement. it's like, I would have known that, when they come home and it was a really rough day at work and they're kind of really shut down, withdrawn. It's not because of me. Right. It's because of whatever transpired at shift that day that they're just trying to process or trying to mull through. it's like, and so we don't really do a great job onboarding the families and giving them this complete picture of what they're really getting into. And then, you know, we've got our officers coming home and they're stoic, right? They're withdrawn, they're isolated. And automatically the significant other, the spouse is like, man, it must be me. Do they not want to be here? you know, and Shaun, you're shaking your head because I'm, you're probably thinking, yeah, I've seen that.

Shaun Klucznik (17:27.145)

I've definitely seen it, I've heard it. Luckily for me, I haven't experienced it. For me, I'm lucky that my wife, she worked for the Department of Corrections for seven, almost eight years. She grew up in a long-term family. Her dad was a lieutenant for the agency I worked for. Her mom was the director for the internal affairs, IT. She was the IT director for years and years. So she knew the stressors of the job. She knew that the phone rang in the middle of the night, are good, I'm getting up to go to work. And that's a blessing for me.

It's not always the same when people don't live it or don't understand it. It definitely those stressors can be there. And luckily for me too, she was able to say, I was, I was being that withdrawn guy. was not talking and there's just being quiet and say, you need to go, go do something, go find somebody and fix it. yeah, I, so many stories I've heard similar and it's, it's, it's sad. You're, and you said it perfectly. We don't onboard the families as well as we should. And that's something we, know internally we're, working towards trying to find a, even like a new hire in service type thing for the families and kind of get them on board.

Vernon Phillips (18:32.632)

Yeah, I think that's important. when we look at that, and I'll kind of ask you, Denise, when we see that and we see the unwillingness really to even communicate, what do you think is one of the things behind that that is the driving factor with like officers coming in and just being shut down, being isolated and not really investing back into family life?

Denise Schonwald (18:59.233)

Well, certainly when they come in to see me, they don't particularly want to be vulnerable. And I will ask just some simple questions like, what are your hobbies outside of work? I don't have time for hobbies. I work all the time. Do you drink? It's usually they have problems with their temper and they have problems with alcohol. And that's the way that they're trying to, again, find balance, find some ease. So as Shaun said before,

Vernon Phillips (19:12.494)

Mm-hmm.

Denise Schonwald (19:26.525)

If you're not doing something healthy, you're doing something unhealthy. Overeating is another one. Excessive scrolling on our phones is another sign that the nervous system's out of balance. And we're looking for ease. We're just, unfortunately, turning to things that are not very helpful.

Vernon Phillips (19:43.618)

Yeah, and you talked about the scrolling on our phones. And I think that there's so many people that just get lost in that perpetual scrolling. I think it's just because it doesn't require any effort. It's just, they're numb. So what can I do that doesn't require me to invest anything or to really make myself vulnerable? And it's like, I can spend

you know, hours just scrolling through TikTok or my social media feed and just, you know, just losing myself in that. And, you know, we can see that not only at home, but they can also do it at work on the job. You know, if they, if they're in a position to where they they're able to have their phone, I mean, they can just kind of be checked out, just running that, that scroll, that feed. And obviously then that becomes, you know, another, another factor you have to consider officer safety and things like that, especially if they're not if they're not paying attention, not doing what they're supposed to. But we see that everybody's got a phone. Everybody's got a phone in their hand. mean, when I grew up, and you guys, when we grew up, we didn't have cell phones readily available in our hands. I think my first cell phone was a track phone. I had to go buy the card, the calling card for it and apply the minutes. And I only have 30 minutes for the month or something like that. I didn't use it for...to call people, I use it for just emergency situations, but now they're everywhere. And it just seems that people, kids are younger and younger younger getting hold of phones. And I think we're just kind of onboarding them that, this is just, you're bored, you don't know what to do, you don't wanna really invest in anything, here, just plug a phone in your hand.

So there's a lot of other ways we could be investing our time, but that's the other thing that kind of brings us back to that balance, right? And we talked about that just a little while ago, Shaun talking about just balancing out life. It's like, where are your distractions? Like, what are you spending more time on than you should? And you could be investing in one of those areas, whether it's the physical, the mental, the emotional, spiritual, but a lot of times we see in law enforcement, a lot of guys, they invest in the physical, right?

Vernon Phillips (22:11.128)

They're in the gym, they're going out and they're running miles and miles, and they're lifting weights, and they seem to be in really good shape, and they're very athletic, but on the flip side of that, that's all they're doing, right? And they're doing that to offset the stuff going on in their life. And on the outside, they look all squared away and put together, but on the inside, right? It's bubble gum and duct tape. They're just kind of trying to keep it all pieced together. So you can be...you can look the part but be very much fractured because of the job. So when we look at that, mean, and when we see what's kind of where we're at in the law enforcement community, is, Shaun, what is three things that you would give, some advice that you'd give to those kind of just coming into the profession, those that are kind of on board, knowing what you know, knowing some of the conversations we've already had thus far, what are three things that you would say, hey,

Denise Schonwald (22:45.165)

Absolutely.

Vernon Phillips (23:08.482)

These are three things that would help you in your career.

Shaun Klucznik (23:12.467)

So I think the first one would be to do your due diligence and do some research and find the right agency before you get started. Not every agency in the country is as progressive when it comes to dealing with mental health as others. Luckily for me, I work at a great agency and when I started dealing with my relationship with Denise and my trying to get some counseling for that problem or those problems.

I had no problem. was 100 % comfortable telling my supervisor, hey, just FYI, I'm tending to my mental health needs and I'm seeing a counselor. I was a lieutenant at the time when that started and luckily for me, it didn't slow me down. The agency was 100 % supportive, wasn't a big deal. Definitely they were happy that I was taking care of what I needed to take care of and because of that comfort level and I've been promoted twice since then.

I've been able to use my story in general to make sure everybody else feels comfortable knowing that they can go seek the same kind of help if they need it. And I'm always that ear too. If my phone rings, I'll pick it up and I'll answer the phone and be happy to talk it or any situation through with anybody. So that would be my first instinct is to make sure you vet the agency you want to go work for. know, the days of long waiting lists and people trying to get to certain agencies are you know, where agency is saying, we're not hiring right now. It's not the case. You can really shop around. You can really find your best. And obviously you get into law enforcement, you have connections, you're to talk to people and make sure that it's the right place you want to be. I would say second is, is make sure you get into good habits early in your career. I wish I never got over to be 300 pounds. That was horrible. I didn't realize how bad it was. And at one point on one of my squads, I was the lightest guy. So that says something about that. It's not.

I had a couple guys on my squad that well over 400 pounds. And we were all just walking, talking heart attacks at the time. And thankfully, as far as I know, everybody has survived since then. But man, every one of us probably need to slow down and stop, lay off the cookies and take care of your physical health early. And then after that, find your spiritual path no matter what. In my opinion, obviously, find a good mental health practitioner to work with early.

Shaun Klucznik (25:33.065)

To maybe don't have to go in with an emergency, my wife says I'm depressed, you need to fix me. That's not ideal. If you can make an annual physical routine, then get on the routine of seeing a mental health counselor. pretty, it's well accepted at this point, it's common, and I think everybody should do it. I know I check in with Denise, probably not nearly enough. We talk more about working together in situations like this than I go see her at.

but she's always there. I was talking to her, I don't know, probably about a year ago, and just trying to get a tune up, let's put it that way. So I would, like I said, vet the agency before you get in, take care of yourself physically, make sure you're taking care of yourself mentally, and then spiritually, even if you're not, I'm a pretty solid Catholic, that's not, you know what, Denise is not, and she told me about her spiritual perspective.

And her and I had a couple disagreements, but listen, it works no matter what. Find your path. If you believe there's a God, then there's a way to practice to adhere to your faith. There's plenty of ways out there. And being open and having those open conversations and finding somebody you won't have those conversations with is important.

Vernon Phillips (26:56.024)

Yeah, absolutely. And then Denise, what about you? What are three things that you would say or that you would provide to somebody kind of just jumping in their career, just starting out in the law enforcement realm?

Denise Schonwald (27:09.569)

Well, certainly with everything we need balance. And if we're not in balance, the body's very sophisticated, particularly the nervous system. So if we're struggling with our temperament, we're frustrated, we're annoyed, we're overwhelmed, it's the body sort of signaling us that we're not in good place. It's up to us to be aware of that and notice what we're doing to try to find relief. Are we overeating? Are we scrolling excessively?

Are we drinking too much after work? And this is a sign that we need to do something better for balance. That's one. Two is every person that I've seen in law enforcement has an excellent mental health coverage. Usually they have no copay. So there's no reason to not call and not get set up with an appointment. I see clients all over the United States. I see people on the weekends. I see people in the evenings.

We'll stop with the, don't have time to go. We have to make time. We're never gonna find the time. And three, when we don't take care of the nervous system, the body will eventually weaken and we get sick. Illness has a disease and we think, oh, all of a sudden I have blood pressure. I'm at that high blood pressure. I'm at that age. That's not true. Oh, I have cancer, runs in my family. Maybe that's true, but we're also doing things that contribute to that.

So I promise you that physical illness has a mental health component to it. And so it's very important, spiritually very important, whether you're believing in the universe, or you're believing in God, whatever you're believing in, that needs to be incorporated into our mental health. So there's a lot of things that we can all be doing to achieve ultimate happiness and wellness.

Vernon Phillips (29:03.534)

Yeah, and I'm glad you hit on the fact about that there is definitely a physical component to what's going on on the cognitive side. Because when we don't manage stress and the things that are just manifesting our life, it's going to come out and it's gonna come out physically in different things. So I'm glad you talked about that. That's something that I remind everybody in our in-service training. It's like, look, if you don't deal with the stressors of life, they're going to manifest, right? And it's not just from a cognitive level. We just automatically assume that stress is just a mental and emotional fight, but no, it has a significant impact on the body also. I mean, the body keeps the score, right? And it absolutely does. And the more that you just hold onto that stuff and take that and push it down and push it down,

Denise Schonwald (29:55.138)

Yes.

Vernon Phillips (30:03.118)

You know, the more adverse physical, you know, effects it's going to have on you, on your person. So I'm glad you kind of definitely keyed in on that. So, you as we kind of move forward, mean, Shaun, you're you just got sworn in, you said recently as the president with the American Jail Association. So what are what are some of the things that they're doing to kind of, you know, set the standard for, you know, looking at like mental health and just wellness and well-being with?

You know, just those in the detention realm of law enforcement.

Shaun Klucznik (30:40.713)

So what kind of triggered this conversation today? I mean, I know we were working on this a little beforehand, but while I was doing my presidential session, the question was asked of me from somebody I know. So we were in Fort Worth, Texas, and somebody I worked alongside at one point doing an assessment asked a question. So from your perspective, she asked me, how do commanders, how do executive leaders take care of themselves enough to be able to take care of the people. that question hit me and I was like, well, you know what? It's funny that story I told you to start the show. It was a time for me to tell that story right there just to let them know that yeah, you have to be right to take care of your people. late or middle last year, I actually lost one of my detention deputies to suicide. So immediately we hear this and it's, first of all, it's devastating. Second of all,

What did we miss, right? So we try to figure out, we miss? Did they exhibit signs at work? Did we just absolutely, were they calling it sick more often? Were they withdrawn? they doing, were they working different? And we tried to figure out and try to find a reason. Couldn't find a reason at home or at work and also couldn't find a reason at home. I got to engage with their spouse and turns out it was a surprise to absolute everybody. And it was devastating for both. Obviously knowing your people and you know, supporting them and having good relationships with your people so you can know that you can identify the changes that come as subtle as they may be. I don't think we missed one here. I wish we would have found something because we definitely could have changed things. So just being able to talk about it and that's what I think I kind of tried to set the stage a little bit. We'll make sure everybody's open and realizing. All right, so the president of association is willing to talk about his own trials and tribulations and owes his own path in seeking counseling and treatment. I think AJ will push that narrative that it's okay. It's okay to be not okay. And if you do it right, your career is gonna be just fine. So we're gonna support that. It's been a hot priority for AJ in general, the presidential plan for the year has been mental health wellness over the years.

Shaun Klucznik (33:06.033)

My plan this year is getting back to basics for the association, but that includes, at this point, basics does include officer wellness, you know. So we're going to do everything we can to offer classes, offer webinars, and then offer, you know, just even getting on this show will definitely help push the message that we are there to support law enforcement agencies, jails across the country, and we will be happy to come into training or just even just offer, you know, these podcasts or webinar, we're there. So I know this too, we're also very specific. Our chaplain Linda Arns is a fantastic chaplain and she has a great program up in Cook County, Illinois, Chicago. It's, you know, staff only, staff only chaplains and chaplains I think will play a vital role. I think chaplaincies have just fallen off in general law enforcement. So we definitely want to reinvigorate that and make sure they're, they're multi-purpose chaplains, not just one specific denomination, a full service chaplain where anybody can be ministered and just take advantage of that. So she's been pushing that and we're definitely supportive of any kind of chaplaincy program. We're actually exploring the concept of maybe trying to find a way to certify chaplains through our association. That's really just discussion at this point. So there's nothing in the works just yet, but anything to support the members is something we're excited for.

Vernon Phillips (34:34.156)

Yeah, you hit on a couple of good key points there that I kind of want to just pull out. But the first thing is you talked about, know, just, hey, what do people who are in those executive positions who are leaders, you know, how do they maintain their own well-being? And I think you said it best is, hey, look, is to just be authentic about it, right? For one, just be open and honest, like, hey, yes, you know, just because.

I've made it to this point just because I'm a major doesn't mean that I don't struggle doesn't doesn't mean that I don't have bad days. So I think one is showing that authenticity but you know it's also to to be you know just real with yourself that you know if you're not well as a leader then you're not going to lead well right. And if you're not leading well then how can you expect those that you supervise to to be well if you're not doing it or setting the example yourself.

You know, so if you want to be an effective leader, if you want to be a healthy leader, then you need to be one who's well in all those areas of your life. Not just, you know, investing in one particular, but, you know, having that balance, right? Each of those components, right? The physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. And I always talk about those because I believe those are the four main building blocks to make up any individual, any individual person, right? Everybody has a stake in there somewhere. And if you're just investing in one, and not investing in the other three, then that's not that's not balanced, right? You're not you're not looking at the whole picture, the complete person. You're just looking at one component. And I think that, you know, that can really cause an issue. And then you you talked about the whole idea of chaplaincy. I think that, you know, in the last several years with law enforcement, we we've really dived into the mental right mental well-being, mental health. We really dived in that. Now we're you know, we're kind of getting a little bit with the emotional side and we're doing a little bit more with emotional intelligence and how to manage our emotions and how our emotions impact the decisions we make and how we interact with individuals. But I think a component that we've kind of left out is that spiritual component, right? So I think that we've seen that kind of take a back seat in the last several years because all these other ones have kind of been pushed forefront. And so,

Vernon Phillips (37:01.026)

I would like to, that's why I I always try to keep it, you know, hey, let's, make sure that we're, we're, we're taking this holistic approach where we're looking at the whole person and not just one aspect. And so I think that's really important. And, know, I'm glad to hear what you guys are doing and trying to work on and try to push out. I think it's good. think that, you know, moving forward, you know, offering those types of resources and those types of trainings is just ultimately going to be better for our people. And.

That's what I never quite could understand is, you you want people to perform better. You want them to, you know, respond to calls for service better, you know, respond to incidents, you know, in the jail detention facility better. You want them to, you know, act better, but we're not willing to really invest in their whole person. It's like, okay, well here, here's a policy, here's some ISTE, here's, you know, the same things we, you know, we do all the, you know, DTAC, driving, firearms, all that, and all that is vital. All that is important, right? We have to keep up on that. But why are we not investing in their overall development of the individual, right? Their professional growth, their personal growth, and really rounding them out to be the best versions of themselves they can be, because then in turn, they're going to serve the agencies they work for better and also the community better, but also engage with their families better. So I think that kind of focusing on some of these things moving forward is definitely a key factor.

So, we've talked a lot about different things, and I kind of already know probably what you're gonna say, but I wanna give this to you, Shaun, and to Denise, but if there's somebody who's currently struggling, right, they're just at the end, they're just the breaking point, and maybe they're contemplating taking their life. mean, obviously, Shaun, you've got a very personal, up close,

Vernon Phillips (39:04.76)

Front row seat to what this looks like and how it impacts families. what is something that you would say to them? What is some encouragement you'd provide to somebody who's kind of just at that point in their life where they're just, I've done everything, I've tried everything, I just, can't keep going the way I'm going.

Shaun Klucznik (39:22.569)

So I think if you have a relationship with that person and you can talk to them, just do less talking and do more listening if they're willing to talk to you. So be that friend, be that person, not necessarily a supervisor, a boss or a coworker, just be a person. There's no way you can understand how a person's challenges are manifesting in their head. I've seen plenty and every even all the way down to the inmates we look at. I've had a conversation with inmates that have talked about that. They're still human. And sometimes humans just need to be heard. Sometimes it needs to be validated to some extent. And then you've got to find a way to steer them to the path to get some professional help the best you can. There's plenty of times people talk about EAP at work. Do people trust EAP? I know I worked in HR for four months and I know that when it comes to the EAP, we never got names. People used it, we got numbers, right? So we were able to get, I how they broke in. Sorry, dogs came in. I don't know how we got the, we only got numbers of usage, not names or not what they're dealing with. And that's proven, absolutely proven. You gotta be able to trust the process. So sometimes that's why you just don't want, you wanna work outside the AP and find your own friend, counselor.

Vernon Phillips (40:30.21)

No, you're good.

Shaun Klucznik (40:47.697)

Professional it's it's vital that you do that. Like I said sometimes just being willing to get on the phone exchange text messages or just just sit down with somebody have a conversation a human conversation be willing to just be open I have no problem sharing my story with anybody I also have no problem answering the phone the phone rings in the middle of night I'm gonna do my best to answer it sometimes takes a little while to figure what's going on but I'll call you back leave me a message send me a text I will absolutely do that and I know if you establish a relationship with quality mental health counselor, then someone like Denise would always answer the phone too. But it's really, anything in life is about relationships. Anything in leadership is about relationships. Having good relationships with people and they being able to trust you to know you're gonna do the right thing and not try to destroy them in any way. If you haven't taken an over action and try to harm yourself, are very good we can get you through it, right? If it's become problematic.

It's it's maybe it's too late. I want to make sure you're gonna survive your life because Life is our life is way more important anything. We're for a job, right? We love our careers and it's hard for law enforcement get out of these careers when it comes time because you know 28 years in and I should I could have retired three years ago I don't want to retire. Well, I have at least eight or nine ten maybe ten more years. I hope Was hard to separate from that. So if you if it's being ripped away from you, that's another stressor, but that's that's

There is life after law enforcement and making a permanent decision because of a temporary situation is not ever a good idea.

Vernon Phillips (42:26.69)

Denise.

Denise Schonwald (42:29.535)

One of the things I would like to say is, if you've ever been so physically ill that you think, I just want to die, I'm so sick. At that point, we just want relief. Well, with mentally, by the time that we get to the point where we're so depressed and we were just so miserable, and this is when we start to isolate because we're, the tank's running out of gas, we can't really think of any other options other than we want to end it.

And so when we get to that low point, it's very hard to make a different decision. But as Shaun said, just talking to somebody about it will get a little bit of energy in the body because you start to, catharsis is what we call it in psychology. It's very healing just for somebody to hold that space and to hear and say, I understand. I feel bad for you or whatever they're saying it'll give enough energy in the body that all of a sudden we start to develop some hope and some guidance. And this is where a licensed qualified mental health counselor is very skilled at understanding what is needed so that we can get out of this very depressed state where we feel like there is no other option other to take a life.

Vernon Phillips (43:47.138)

Yeah, and I'm glad you kind of hit on that because from the outside looking in, we always had this thought like, don't understand. I don't understand. How did they make that decision? How did they get to that point? But what we don't understand is for them, whatever they're going through is so intense, right? There's so much pressure, there's so much hurt that they just want it to stop, right? So for them and their current state, what we feel is not a logical decision for them is a logical decision, right? Because they just want it to stop. so having that idea and being able to kind of say, hey, look,

It's okay to not be okay, but let's not stay there, right? And for me personally, this is my own belief that why we still see suicide, especially in law enforcement, first responder communities, because for one, they feel like they're the only ones, right? They feel like they're the only ones struggling with it, dealing with it, because it's still kind of one of those topics that we don't really talk about. There's a lot of numbers that are pushed out and there's...

Denise Schonwald (44:39.447)

Yes.

Vernon Phillips (45:00.45)

There's things that are like, know, if you're, you know, if you're struggling, call this number. But we still continue to see year after year that there's the number one killer of law enforcement first responders is suicide. And, you know, I believe it's because they just feel like they're the only ones. They feel that, you know, no one else is feeling the way that they're feeling and that the devil's a liar and he'll absolutely capitalize on, you know, someone's hopelessness and their despair. But, you know, when you get to that point in your life where

Shaun Klucznik (45:10.301)

Thank

Vernon Phillips (45:30.254)

There's no hope left, right? You're feeling hopeless, helpless, and worthless. That's a bad combination of things. But when we can re-instill one of those back into somebody's life, we can start to pull them out of that place that they're at. Talking about it is one of those things. We've got to be able to talk about it. We can't be afraid to talk about suicide and what it is and how it's impacting the community and how individuals are struggling with suicide ideations. We just had this thought that, if we ask somebody if they're suicidal, that we're gonna spark their, that we're gonna encourage them. It's like, that's not true. We have to ask the hard questions. It's a hard question to ask somebody, hey, you have any thoughts that you're killing yourself or you having thoughts of taking your life and-

That's a hard question to ask, right? It's a hard, but it's a harder question not to have asked and then have the end result, which we see far too often. And so I think, you know, just having these open, honest discussions like this is key, right? We have to be able to have the conversations. We have to talk about, this is some of the warning signs. This is some of the things that, you know, that kind of can manifest and get to this point. So let's be.

Let's be aware of it. Let's be honest and let's have some healthy conversations. So, and I know we've talked a lot about, you know, just some of the heavy side of the career. So you just kind of turn it just a real light, lighter side before we start to wrap things up, Shaun, as you kind look back over your career, what's one of the funniest or most awkward, you know, calls for service or incidents in the detention side that you've had that

Shaun Klucznik (47:17.705)

You

Vernon Phillips (47:25.134)

It's kind one of those things where you're like, yep, funny or just awkward.

Shaun Klucznik (47:32.339)

That's a good question. You know, it's funny is all of my years and 28 years, what popped in my head just now was I had a trainee at the time who for a little while and I look at it as a badge of honor at this point, but I turned into the Fix It FTO. So if somebody whose trainees were struggling and the documentation wasn't strong enough to either dismiss them or move them on, then they'd send them to me. And I enjoyed some challenging trainees and I had one trainee, I wish I could say his name, but it was hard to say in real life anyway, but he came in and he was just, he was hilarious, right? But he was not designed for law enforcement or corrections. were actually the third agency he'd come to work for. And he literally at one point took a volunteer's guitar and I thought he was searching it. I thought he was going to search it.

And I was like, look at this guy. He's actually doing the right thing and looking inside the guitar. Nope. He decided to have a concert, started playing the guitar and just play. And I'm like, what is going on here? This guy's a, he's a great guitar player and he's singing. And I'm like, this is not the setting for this buddy. But I was so impressed by his skills that I didn't know what to do. So later on the same exact day, he's in the housing unit. And next thing I know, remember the old school cameras with the click it, the wind it up. was one of the throwaway cameras.

He pulled out a camera out of his pocket. Wasn't supposed to have it. And started taking selfies like we'd know today with inmates. He all right, so we proved today that I cannot save you from yourself. So we're gonna document you out of here. what a character, great guy. But it was really, was one of those days, I'm like, how did this happen? And how did I, I didn't realize a guy was carrying a camera on him. I mean, today you carry a cell phone in, you're not supposed to have it, you can go to jail, it's technically contraband.

Vernon Phillips (49:15.818)

man.

Shaun Klucznik (49:29.619)

But this is bad, it was terrible. So that was probably the weirdest day of my career and that was real early. So I guess that's pretty good.

Vernon Phillips (49:40.603)

that's that's pretty funny. I thought you were gonna say he like just take it and started smashing it. But

Shaun Klucznik (49:47.369)

That would have better probably, but he was pretty talented. He was pretty good at guitar.

Vernon Phillips (49:51.778)

So, well, as we kind of start wrapping things up, if somebody wants to reach out and get a hold of you, Shaun or Miss Denise, what's the best way they can do that?

Shaun Klucznik (50:02.313)

So for me the easiest way now because of the spelling is ShaunK, S-H-A-U-N-K at AJA.org is my email address with AJ, at least for the next year. So anybody has any questions there, it's a lot easier than trying to spell my last name. So ShaunK at AJA.org.

Vernon Phillips (50:18.06)

And can add that I can add this into the show notes. 

Vernon Phillips (50:40.238)

But I appreciate each of you taking the time to jump on here and just share some of your insight. Shaun, I appreciate you just being authentic and sharing some of your history and your story. And Ms. Denise, I appreciate what you're doing and the help that you're offering to those in the law enforcement community. So I appreciate it. Thank you both.

Shaun Klucznik (51:06.473)

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.