Interview with Kirsten Yule-Zaagman-Mom, Deputy, and Mrs.Tennessee

In this conversation, we talk with Kirsten Yule-Zaagman, a sheriff's deputy and Mrs. Tennessee, about her experiences in law enforcement and the pageant world. We discuss the challenges of balancing a demanding career with motherhood, the importance of mental wellness, and the need for immediate access to mental health resources for officers. Kirsten shares her insights on coping with trauma, the significance of family support, and the role of faith in personal growth. The conversation also touches on the importance of humor in law enforcement and the need for open communication among officers regarding mental health. Kirsten's pageant platform focuses on officer wellness and community health, emphasizing the importance of engaging in activities that promote personal growth and well-being.

Takeaways

• Importance of mental wellness in law enforcement.
• Balance motherhood and a demanding career.
• Power of community support for first responders.
• Encourages officers to maintain humility and a willingness to learn.
• Engage in activities that promote personal growth.
• Importance of open communication among officers regarding mental health.

IG-Kirsten Yule-Zaagman

Transcript

Vernon Phillips (00:01.462)

All right, welcome back to Critical Aspects of Law Enforcement. I'm your host, Vernon Phillips. And today it's a little bit different. As you can see, we're not in our normal location, but we do have a special guest today. So it's Kirsten Yule Zaagman. And I hope I pronounced that right, but if I didn't, she's going to correct that. But I'm going give her an opportunity to introduce herself and just give a little bit of background about who she is, what she's doing, how long she's kind of been in.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (00:21.833)

Thank you.

Vernon Phillips (00:29.495)

doing what she's doing and then would kind of jump into the conversation. So, Kirsten.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (00:34.613)

Yeah, well, you said it perfectly. That was very good. With the one practice, I think you did very well. I'm Kirsten. I'm here in Knoxville. I'm a sheriff's deputy with the Knox County Sheriff's Office. And I'm not originally from here, as you can probably tell from my accent. I was born in Africa, moved to the UK, and then eventually moved to the States probably about 10 years ago.

Vernon Phillips (00:37.322)

Yes.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (01:02.679)

been involved in law enforcement for about five of those years. And yeah, now I'm in this pageant world and I'm Mrs. Tennessee. And it's been a great opportunity to really give my passion for mental wellness and the law enforcement community a platform here locally, especially. So that's kind of what, in a nutshell, what I'm doing.

Vernon Phillips (01:25.675)

Okay. And we're going to dive into some of that, but that's, really cool. mean, obviously you're, you're working in law enforcement. You got a little bit of time in there, but you're also, you know, Mrs. Tennessee getting ready to, to, compete in that, the bigger category of, you know, Mrs. America. So that's pretty cool. Cause you know, you don't really see those together too often. you know, the law enforcement career and that mixed, but obviously, you know, we know that the law enforcement career.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (01:41.003)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (01:55.469)

is a demanding profession, right? It's a demanding job. And now you're kind of, doing this, the whole pageant world also, but so I'm sure that has its own demand and that's all in its own pressure. So how do you yourself just maintain your overall, you know, physical, you know, mental, emotional and spiritual wellbeing. So what is it that you do that keeps you balanced and kind of grounded in both of those categories?

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (01:59.296)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (02:07.542)

Yes.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (02:23.636)

Yeah, and I think everyone probably agrees that it's a working progress for that stuff. But what I've learned to do, I've had a child, my daughter's two and a half years old. So for me, she is my purpose and keeps me grounded. And how I mentally cope with a lot of things is as soon as I come home, I turn off my patrol car, take off my uniform, all of a sudden I try and leave the sheriff's deputy at the door and I'm...

I'm now a mother and a wife. And I think that mental switch off is what has helped me, but it's taken a lot of years of kind of working out how to do that. It's taken a lot of self-reflection because for a while I would walk in as the sheriff's deputy and I wouldn't be able to turn that cop off. And that was incredibly physically and emotionally draining. So I saw how it was affecting my family. And so I made the conscious effort to work on mentally turning her off. So I'd say that's mentally how I do it. physically, I mean, running after a two and a half year old takes its toll on you physically. She's a very rambunctious little girl. So we are all over the place and we are in the trenches with the terrible twos right now. So we are absolutely kind of working with that physically, but you know, doing things like just going to the gym. have, I have some, I used to be big into CrossFit.

Vernon Phillips (03:31.979)

yeah. Yep.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (03:49.533)

and I have a lot of CrossFit stuff still here at the house. That's really the only time out of the day between work, being a mom, and everything else is maybe the two hours before bed that I can actually focus on myself. But yeah, spiritually, that for me personally is definitely a work in progress. I wasn't raised in a particularly religious household. That's kind of something I came to myself.

And I definitely think my experience as a law enforcement officer brought me closer to that. So that's something I kind of, I like to sit and ponder on because yeah, a lot of life's experiences don't really have any other explanation. So, yeah, mentally switching off is my biggest thing. You need to leave the cop outside because as soon as you bring the cop inside, it affects everybody.

Vernon Phillips (04:45.525)

And that's really important. And I'm glad to hear you say that because a lot, I think that's an area where a lot of law enforcement struggle, right? Is learning to turn that off, learning when to, okay, check that at the door. So I'm no longer sheriff's stepy, I'm no longer police officer, I'm no longer this role. And now I'm stepping into home. This is where I transition into mom, dad.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (05:13.873)

All right.

Vernon Phillips (05:13.963)

you know, husband, wife, know, son, daughter, whatever that may be currently for you. And it's like, I think that so many struggle with that and they don't really get it until, you know, five, 10, 15, maybe even later in their career when, when it's had that adverse effect on the family and you kind of start to see that, you know, that chipping away at that support network. And so I think it's important and I'm glad to hear you say that, that you had to learn to turn that off, right? Turn off deputy and then you know really transact that transition back into that you know wife mode mom mode because when you bring that home and that you bring all that stuff that you deal with then you you you subject your family to it it's just you know then they're like well what did I do right what

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (05:47.05)

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Vernon Phillips (06:08.906)

So, I think that's important. I think that, you know, there's probably a lot of, especially, you know, moms in law enforcement that would, you know, kind of want to hear like, so how do you, how do you manage that? Right? So how do you manage being, you know, a deputy, but also being a mom, especially a mom, you know, of a two and a half year old, you know, cause that's a, that's an important balance, right? That's a, that's a juggling act. And I'm sure that's hard for you.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (06:29.769)

Thank you.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (06:37.82)

Okay.

Vernon Phillips (06:38.298)

as a mom, like, okay, hey, I've got this full-time career, but then I've also have, you know, my two and a half year old at home. So, you know, can you kind of speak to that a little bit?

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (06:45.96)

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. And what I've noticed is just kind of going back to switching the cop off before that is I have to really watch my tone because I think as a law enforcement, especially on patrol, you have that officer presence, right? So that officer presence does not work when you're talking to your husband or your child because it's it's creating tension. And as you say, like 10, 15 years is when people maybe start realizing that they can't engage with their family like that. And by that time, I mean, some officers are on their second marriage, third marriage, because they've had a complete breakdown in communication because they can't be the husband or the wife anymore. They're just constantly the officer. yeah, balancing motherhood and law enforcement is a challenge, especially when I was on a patrol schedule, because I did feel like I was missing out on some of her milestones. I've fortunately been put into a more regular scheduled position now. But I think taking joy in the small moments and really being present with her is the most important thing. And I think that again leads back to mentally being able to switch off because I remember times where I would be...with my family, but my mind, I was on scene somewhere else. So being present and appreciating the people around you and the small details is incredibly important if you're gonna be a parent and be an officer. I don't wanna be one of those parents who, you know, the kid of the officer goes off the rails because mom was never home. Mom never spotted the signs of issues because she was too involved in...

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (08:42.985)

helping everybody else. That's like my worst nightmare. So being present, making time. We all wanna do side jobs. all wanna, you know, always working, always trying to get more money, because law enforcement is law enforcement. We don't make a huge amount. So we're always working side jobs. We're always looking for those extra shifts, extra training, all this, but the family suffers if you don't put the family at the center of everything you do. So, yeah.

Vernon Phillips (09:08.637)

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's important for others to hear that is to making sure you have that balance. Cause I think so many times in this profession that gets out of skew, right? That gets out of kilter and that whole balance is just, it's off, right? So it ends up being tilted and just wobbly. But when you intentionally put that back in and you're trying to, okay, hey, look, yes, this is my profession, right? This is what I'm doing.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (09:16.488)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (09:26.024)

Okay.

Okay.

Vernon Phillips (09:38.652)

This is not my main purpose, right? My main purpose is my family. My main purpose is being that spouse to my husband, being a mom, and making sure that you're celebrating those little times, like you said, and taking advantage of those moments, and being present, and consciously switching that off. Now, I mean, that can be hard.

Like you said, that's hard because I'm here, I'm present, but my mind is somewhere else. And it's one of those things where you have to really kind of condition yourself to make sure that you're making those conscious decisions to step out of that role and make sure that you're doing your primary role because regardless of how invested you are in your career, if you have children, if you have a family at home,

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (10:04.296)

Yeah.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (10:23.626)

Okay.

Vernon Phillips (10:30.58)

That's gotta be where your primary influence is and where your primary, all your energy and your time is going because a lot of times you come home and they're getting what's left. And how many people want to get leftovers? Right? I mean...

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (10:43.366)

Exactly.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (10:48.237)

Yeah, not the... Yeah. And that's right. And then it kind of becomes a, well, are they growing resentful of the profession? Because they know that this job is taking mum or dad away or wife or husband away. And some families grow resentful of it. And that's terrible because the toll that we carry on our day to day, just through the things we experience, we really need that family support. So, but we need to provide for them. We need to be able to...

to pour into them as much as they pour into us. So I think it's a very valid point.

Vernon Phillips (11:22.052)

Yeah, and.

Yeah, and the thing is, I think that's one of the first support network that most law enforcement tend to kind of disregard. And I used this earlier because I taught a portion on stress here, kind of where I'm at this week at this conference. And I probably upset a lot of people. It was a room full of chaplains. And I said, one of the things that law enforcement do is they take that social support network at home. And that's the first place that you that's the first group they piss off, you know, and it's like, you you say that and there's, you know, and you're in all the chapters, you're of like, I can't believe you just said that, you know, is it, well, you know, it is true, right? Because, know, subconsciously you kind of think, well, you know, my family, they're home, they're always going to be there. You know, I can come in I can kind of, you know, I can, know, I can just trauma dump and just garbage dump and just, you know, date, you know, my whole shift dump. then, you know, they're still going to be there. Well, that's not always the case.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (11:55.878)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (12:01.638)

Ha!

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (12:23.0)

Exactly. And you see a lot of breakdowns in relationships from it.

Vernon Phillips (12:24.294)

It's like, so we.

Yeah, absolutely. you know, it's important to, maintain that balance and to, to, to make sure that, you know, you're fostering an environment of that, of social support at home and not, you know, chipping away at it over time and, you know, leaving yourself with, with that, just something that's not going to be there when you retire. So I think it's really important to, make sure that you're investing in at home and investing in that people group that do have your back, that do love you, that are there for you as long as you come in and you give them your all and you also let them in. I think the other thing is letting them in, letting them see the human side of the job and how it affects you. You don't have to share all the darkness and the raw details, but they just want to know.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (13:03.77)

Okay.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (13:07.481)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (13:24.262)

Like they just want to know, they want to be involved. They want to be included. They want to know how you're doing. And a lot of times, you know, you come home and you shut down, you're isolated and your family's like, well, what did I do? What did I do to make you to close you off, to throw up this wall? So you don't want to talk to me anymore. Um, so I think, I think it's vital that, you know, I think it's great that you're intentionally making sure that you're making those investments, right? You're, you're, you're taking the time to kind of make those investments.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (13:32.561)

peace.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (13:36.837)

Yes.

Vernon Phillips (13:53.636)

whether they're little or big at a time so that you've got a nice social support network there when you retire.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (14:01.518)

Yeah, exactly, because you're absolutely right. When you do that retirement walk, that's it. You're not going to be able to go back and put your old call sign on again and everything else. It's done and the department moves on. But yeah, I think a lot of officers, in my experience, it's like, no one will understand what we do. That's why we have to all, we can only be friends with other officers. can only, because no one gets what we do I think we're a little guilty of that and not sharing our experience with people who aren't in a first responding role. And it does absolutely alienate people and especially families. On the other side of it, you have to be careful not to give your family like secondary trauma and give those super grisly details of everything that you've just seen. But yeah, you need to absolutely involve them because we're gone for long periods of time and I don't want to...and I'm sure this is true for lot of us, is I don't want to become a person my family doesn't recognize. And I've definitely noticed there's been a few issues like that. Like my patience has definitely got a lot less. So yeah, it's important to involve them. Don't traumatize them, but make sure they feel included.

Vernon Phillips (15:19.781)

Yeah, absolutely. yeah, as we kind of move on in our discussion, because we could probably just spend the whole time, you know, just talking about like that family dynamic and the importance of that. And that's important and that's huge. And obviously that's an important component of your life. know, when we look at the career, you know, this time that you've spent so far, you know, what are the three of the most significant things that you've learned?

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (15:49.061)

It's a really good question. Complexity of the individual is something I've definitely learned because we roll up on scene and we have a set of facts presented to us. We don't know what has happened to that person in the last year, five, 10 years of their life. I've learned that you can't always judge a book by their cover because the individual is so dynamic.

So those people that I come into contact with, I try and take in a big picture of who they are. And that can help me as an officer better serve them to understand all aspects of who they are. I'm obviously not gonna get all aspects through there on a five minute interaction, but I can maybe gather a little bit more information about who they are. So not judging people by the initial interaction is definitely something I've learned because someone who is high on drugs, agitated, causing an issue. Little did I know like a week before they were an abuse victim or whatever else. So there's a lot of complexities to every individual that we come into contact with. Another thing I would say I've learned is to cut myself some grace. all people, we're all human, we're gonna make mistakes need to give ourselves a bit of a break. Like we want to go out there and we want to be super cop. Ultimately, this profession is a learning experience every day. So cutting yourself a bit of grace and asking questions, definitely something I've learned. And then finally, I've learned that you're lot more capable than you think you are, because we were put into high stress situations.

And then again, we come home and we're family. But kind of understanding that we can rise to every challenge. Because in my career, I started this job with no law enforcement experience. didn't come from, you know, I hadn't been in the military. I hadn't done any of that stuff. I actually came from being a project manager. So completely different. And I came to this profession because I wanted to challenge myself. And I definitely think...

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (18:14.113)

in the last five years, I've shown myself more capable of anything that I thought I could do. And that's all thanks to law enforcement.

Vernon Phillips (18:19.523)

Thank you.

Vernon Phillips (18:24.088)

Yeah. And those are, you know, those, and those are great, you know, think key points to focus in on. mean, when you think about it, yeah, I mean, you interact with an individual, on the scene. mean, you don't really know the backstory unless it's somebody that you have, you know, you have that history with, you know, it's a regular call for service. It's the same person over and over, but yeah, you don't know what's going on in the back half. right. They're still human being, so they still need to be treated as such, you know, so I,

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (18:41.335)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (18:52.804)

I think that's important. think that sometimes that can kind of get skewed in law enforcement. think that, you know, the longer you spend in law enforcement, the more calloused and tainted you become and the more kind of brash you become towards, you know, people in society. And, you know, that's kind of one of those inherent things. You know, you're in the job long enough and then everybody's a suspect. Everybody's out to get you. You know, everybody's doing something shady. So,

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (19:03.715)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (19:14.882)

Yes.

Vernon Phillips (19:18.712)

think kind of remembering that that, you know, sometimes, you know, people are falling on hard times. Sometimes people just make bad decisions. Not saying, hey, don't make sure you're doing your job. Make sure that you're, you know, practicing officer safety. Make sure that, you know, you're not allowing yourself to become, you know, complacent in what you're doing. But remember that people are still people. People are still people. You know, and I think that also just the idea of giving yourself some grace, you know, that goes a long way because you have to

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (19:36.416)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (19:48.035)

perform to a certain standard or you have a certain standard that you perform to, you know, whether that's established personally by yourself or, you know, culturally or whatever it may be. look, once again, we're all human. We're all going to mess up. We're all going to make mistakes. So give yourself, like you said, a little bit of grace and, um, okay, Hey, you know what messed up kind of own that let's learn from that. Let's move forward. You know, um, you know, make, make the appropriate adjustments and then move on.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (20:11.522)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (20:17.314)

Yeah, I just think that that's, that's really important. Then also just the fact that you're saying that, you know, I'm more capable than I give myself credit. I think there's a lot of people that, you know, are come down on themselves because, you know, I didn't get this spot or I didn't get this promotion or, you know, I didn't make so they just kind of stop and they don't give themselves, you know, that credit that they deserve. Like, okay, I'm going to push a little bit more. I'm going to do a little bit more. I'm going to, you know, stretch myself a little bit more because

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (20:37.218)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (20:46.357)

I can do more than I limit myself to. So think those are great points and those are great things to consider. Those are great takeaways from where you're at now so far.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (21:02.019)

Yeah, and I think it kind of ties, especially that last point, of ties directly into the kind of left field decision I made to join this pageant system, because I'd never done a pageant before. I felt, you know, I was an officer, I was a mom, and I was like, there's nothing I'm really doing for me that can, you know, it's just purposely for me in which I can feel fulfilled and giving back to my community in a certain way, not just from the law enforcement side, but

from the side where I'm not walking onto scene expecting, know, looking at everyone as a suspect, so to speak, but in a way in which I can engage in a more wholesome way with my community. And that, you know, I kind of put myself forward for it and it turned out really well. And I encourage others to do that because you're right, people kind of give up and they stagnate. And I think that's very detrimental for your mental health because you're then...in this cycle of, I'm not good enough, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go sit under a bridge and not even bother to do, you know, go and be proactive or whatever else. And that affects all aspects of you as an individual, especially as a law enforcement officer.

Vernon Phillips (22:12.108)

Yeah, so think that's important. Always continue challenge yourself, always continue to stretch yourself and push yourself beyond your self prescribed limitations, but also making sure you're doing something for you. That's the other thing is we see the family kind of kind of sidelined, but then also we see ourselves get sidelined, right? Where you're not investing back in yourself. So I think it's important to invest in yourself.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (22:35.071)

Yeah.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (22:40.393)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (22:42.305)

When you kind of look back at the time you spent in law enforcement so far, what was one of the most kind of significant scenes you to deal with and how did you get past that? Because I think that's important, because the whole idea is we want to promote individuals talking about like, yeah, this is a particularly hard call for service. And this is what I did to get on the other side of it. And I think that's a big piece of wellness and promoting just the authenticity of like, hey, yeah, like

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (23:03.423)

and then.

Vernon Phillips (23:11.65)

Law enforcement can suck sometimes and sometimes we get really bad calls and it really impacts who we are. It really kind of hits us. We hit that roadblock and we're like, okay, where do I go from here? if you're willing to share, what was, if you have anything specific.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (23:26.465)

Uh-huh.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (23:31.08)

Yeah, thinking of kind of a traumatic call, one always comes to mind, so please excuse some of the more grisly side of things, but it was a night shift and we had a call that, it's one of those calls that comes up on your screen, you're like, that's not real. There's absolutely no way that's real. But unfortunately it was, there was a young man who was very mentally ill who had decided that he was going to take his own life.

And he did so in a very, he did so by setting himself on fire in his front yard. And his dad had found him and it was terribly sad. When we got there, it was myself and my partner who were the first on scene. know, dad's on top of him trying to put him out with a carpet. So we're dealing with this, the fire department's pulling up.

And it came to be found that he was very mentally ill, hadn't seen a doctor in like 15 years, and dad was also mentally ill. So was just a really sad situation. And that was the visual side of that call, as well as stepping into that home and seeing how this family lived was very taxing on me. I replayed it a lot. had a very negative feel. That whole call just felt terrible. And I remember speaking to the to the detective who arrived on scene and he was just like, this is a wild one. I was like, yeah, this is, in my couple of years doing this, this is the one that stands out. And when I came home that morning, I spoke to my mom who was in my house. And I remember for the first time in my career, I sat on the floor to take my boots off because I just didn't know what else to do with myself. I was so physically and emotionally drained from that call that I...

I almost immediately fell asleep too. So I could tell it definitely had an effect on me because I'm one of those people where my mind starts racing and all things I have to do the next day and everything else. And I immediately fell asleep and I slept for probably about 10 hours, which again is unusual for me. So for the next couple of weeks, I noticed that I would replay the same images from that scene in my head. And I was like, this is not good. This is not, not, good. And what I did is...

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (25:50.312)

actually kind of funny. I was big into aviation and I started distracting myself by taking my daughter to the airfield and showing her airplanes because I was trying to pump as much goodness into my being at that point because I just I really really struggled with the with the consequences of what that young man did that night and that yeah it was it was a really big learning point where I have to almost sit with the feelings too. I think big thing a lot of us don't do is we don't fully feel all the emotion of it, we kind of try and push it aside. So after I'd had a great day with my daughter at the airfield, I would really sit and try and process what I had seen and I was rationalizing in my mind why this had happened. And that eventually over probably about a month finally got me over that call, but that one was a really, really tough one for me.

And that's what I would encourage someone else to do is you need to sit and feel it because if you don't, it's going to be like the straw that breaks the camel's back. I don't know if you've ever heard that phrase, but it's like those small little things that just keep piling up because you haven't addressed them. Because now I can easily talk about that call. I can talk about that call in more detail. And it doesn't bother me, but it bothered me for a long time. So yeah, you need to process it and you need to find some distractions that are going to put some joy back in your life as well. And also talk to your partners.

Vernon Phillips (27:14.911)

Yeah, that's.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (27:16.606)

You need to to your partners. I'm sorry, you need to talk to your partners too. Like the guys who were on scene with me that day, we still talk about it because we're all kind of shaken up by that one. So you need to have that open dialogue with your partners too.

Vernon Phillips (27:30.569)

Yeah, absolutely. And you said some really good things in there where you talked about, you allowed yourself to process, you know, your feelings and your emotions around it. that's, and then you also said that what we tend to do is we tend to just take stuff and push it aside or push it down and not deal with it. And then what happens is, you you had that, that cumulative buildup until eventually it's, it's going to manifest, right? It's all of that stuff you push down and it's going to come back out in some form or another. So, you know, you, by you dealing with it and actually processing it,

You you you took the emotion out of it right you emotionally exhausted it and so and that's actually you know good technique where you you You take out all the emotion and you get the point where it's like, okay Hey, I process this and I can actually talk about it because you you spend the time actually Making sure you took that emotional fuse out But when you don't do that you just take it and you just kind of take that that very live active, you know

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (28:05.961)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (28:29.788)

bomb that's just eventually is going to detonate and you just put it off to the side. But when you take that time, the other thing you did was you reinforced it with something positive, right? So going to the aviation field and watching the planes and everything and then processing it. It was almost a little bit like stress inoculation. You're removing and exhausting the emotions around that and it gave you the ability to then move forward and process beyond that. I think that's

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (28:34.44)

Yeah.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (28:42.878)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (28:59.526)

a lot of times what does not happen. You know, we just take it, push it down and it just festers, right? And it just continues to just, you know, ferment and sour and it just over time it gets worse. And you know, from the outside, maybe everything looks great, but on the inside, you know, things are just decaying and just, you know, worsening over time. And then also, you know, talking, talking it out, talking with, you know, your, your partners and things that that's also a huge thing making sure like, can we all just, can we all agree that that call sucked? Can we all agree that, you know, that was messed up? Like, and then everybody like, yes, absolutely. And then, and then you're not alone, right? Then you're not isolated. You're not dealing with what you think, man, I'm the only one doing this because nobody else is saying anything. So, so that was, that was awesome to hear that. So.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (29:32.943)

Yes. Yeah.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (29:38.557)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (29:47.845)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. it's... Yeah, no, and it's, it was... That was a learning experience because I hadn't really sat with the emotions of a call before. I kind of always push them back, like you say. And I found that during my time when I was sitting with the emotions of that call, emotions from other calls would come up too, that I had kind of just ignored and put back. And so I knew it was healing because...

I was pretty upset about a lot of things that I had witnessed and been through, but all of a sudden I was at peace with it all. So I wasn't upset anymore. I mean, I'm upset for the families, but I'm not personally holding onto it anymore.

Vernon Phillips (30:35.047)

So to kind of like take a different direction, obviously we can talk about all these traumatic calls and things like that, but what is one of the funniest or most awkward calls that you've dealt with? So.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (30:37.79)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (30:46.909)

I think I, this is actually an agency I worked at before the sheriff's office, but I had one call that I feel like every officer hopes happens. But we had a young lady who worked at a gentleman's club who had taken some bad LSD and she decided that she was going to go to a bar next door and get on the bar and remove her clothing and throw glasses at the patrons. So obviously every young man on my shift was en route to that call because I mean, never are you ever gonna get a call like that again. So that one was hilarious. think, obviously they called for a female, but it was classic. like, is this real? Can we write this one down as we witnessed this? Because normally it's not the people that you wanna see without clothes on, without clothes on. So yeah, that was a really...

Vernon Phillips (31:45.382)

Yep.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (31:46.363)

a really funny one, poor girl bless her heart, she got the help she needed but yeah that was a wild one. But it's important to be able to laugh about things like that and to have that camaraderie because yeah it's so much darkness sometimes where instance like that, yes it's dark for the individual but it kind of creates a little bit of light because it is quite comical. So it's important to have that balance. It always goes back to balance and it always goes back to

Vernon Phillips (32:10.642)

Yeah.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (32:16.24)

to making sure you're in tune with who you are.

Vernon Phillips (32:21.777)

Yeah, absolutely. And that's funny that all the the mail officers are like, they need backup on that one, right?

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (32:29.04)

Yeah, send me a screen, send me a screen. It's like, I don't think we need the whole West District en route to this one bar, but no, they were. I was like, this is our time. So, yeah.

Vernon Phillips (32:41.884)

I'm servant protect. But yeah, that's funny. So, you know, when you look at law enforcement, I mean, you're, you've got enough time in now that you, you've seen, you know, some of the changes and some of the things kind of going on. Do you feel like, you know, that in the academy and then also now, do you think the agencies are doing enough to prepare law enforcement officers for just the career? Like the things they're going to see.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (32:44.22)

Yes. Serving and protecting all the way.

Vernon Phillips (33:11.962)

interactions they're gonna have, then just overall, you know, just taking care of their overall wellness.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (33:18.949)

think it's getting better. When I went through in 2020,

It was starting to get better then, but I still, I don't think it's entirely where it needs to be yet because we, all our departments obviously have the employee assistance programs, things like that. I think there's still a lot of bureaucracy involved in actually gaining access to some of those benefits. But in the academy itself,

There's only so much you can teach someone or prepare them for with a PowerPoint presentation. You know, it's going to be real life experience when you're going through the FTO program. And honestly, probably beyond because all of a sudden when you're on your own and you haven't got your FTO or your trainer to look at, that's when you're going to really have to process a lot of the crap that you see. So,

I think departments are getting better. I think they're trying harder with providing things like, I don't know a department now that doesn't really have a gym or membership at least to a gym included in a benefits package. So things like that they're getting better with, but I still think there's a lot of red tape we need to cut through in terms of getting offices access to immediate counseling. Cause that's something I've noticed and that why I'm very vocal about this in the pageant system, because I want people to know about it, when an officer goes through a traumatic experience and they say, first of all, getting them to go, yes, I need help is hard enough. But if someone does, you know, it's a week, two weeks, three weeks before they can actually get in front of someone that they can talk to. And so the Take My Hand Foundation that I'm working with, the whole goal is to make sure an officer can get

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (35:12.955)

in front of the counselor or therapist within 24 to 48 hours after saying, help me. So it's important, but it needs more. Yeah, it needs more work for sure.

Vernon Phillips (35:19.191)

Absolutely. That's important.

Vernon Phillips (35:25.999)

Yeah, and I think that, like you said, agencies are doing better, departments are doing better. And like you said, there's only so much onboarding you can do in the Academy or in the mini academies at different agencies. I think a lot of agencies have EAP right, wrong, or different. Everybody has their own feelings about EAP programs. I think something important is making sure that those resources are vetted.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (35:31.013)

Yes.

Vernon Phillips (35:55.194)

that you're able to connect officers, employees with somebody who understands the job, understands the profession, and that they can get to in a reasonable amount of time. So if in crisis, and they go through EAP, and the EAP comes back, and they're like, okay, it's gonna be 30 days before we can get you on somebody, that does not help a person in crisis, right? So that's a big thing, and that's important to me. That's one of the things that we do through the nonprofit with critical aspects.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (36:04.078)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (36:15.456)

Right. No, no.

Vernon Phillips (36:24.984)

you know, which is, you know, the podcast is an extension of that is, know, we try to make sure that we get individuals who are needing help or wanting help, you know, whether they're going outside of insurance or they're trying to get established with a first responder therapist is that, you know, we get them in contact with them, you know, like in a reasonable amount of time, right? Within that time period that for one, they're not going to change their mind, right? And then it dip out or kind of get the, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. Nah, I was just kind of in my feelings. But no, like hey, all right, here. Here is somebody we work with, here is their number, call them. I'm gonna reach out and say, hey, someone's always calling and you know what, we're gonna step in and we're gonna cover X amount of visits for you if it's somebody who is fee based. a lot of, and I wanna say this.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (36:58.286)

Yes.

Vernon Phillips (37:20.778)

lightly, but also like there's a lot of good first responder therapists who understand the frustrations of insurance and just the the haggling of that just a lot of the stuff behind that so they're so they're fee based only right only because then they don't they don't have to deal with this stupid stuff that insurance makes you go through and You know like hey you Because you know there's a lot of stuff and I don't want to kind of get off on a tangent you know chase that rabbit

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (37:36.687)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (37:50.234)

Um, but, know, so, so sometimes that can be a roadblock where it's like, okay, well, it's going to cost X amount of dollars. Okay. Well, if we can step in and say, Hey, we're going to cover X amount of sessions and we get them in contact with that person right away. You know, then they go in and they see the importance of it. And then they get that buy-in and then they're like, okay, this does work. This person is legit. They, they understand, they know. So, you know, we've got, we've got a couple of therapists that we work with, um, that we refer people out to and, um, that.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (38:08.922)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (38:20.036)

just are absolutely jammed up. And I think that is one thing that agencies, anybody who runs a wellness program or deals with EAP, they need to vet the people on the other side because just because it's a resource that's there doesn't mean that you're getting the best resource for your employees, for your people that are gonna get them the help and the necessary resources they need. So I'm glad that you didn't bring that up.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (38:44.525)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, because really that officer who's asking for help, you have him or her really for one session, that one session to really to grab them in to start helping them. So you're right. If you have someone who's not really jiving and not really kind of working with the culture of law enforcement and how we operate, you're going to lose that audience immediately. And that's a complete shame, a complete shame. And it can have absolutely devastating effects.

And I think also, you know, as partners and officers, we need to also check in on each other. I don't think we do that enough either. I think we need to start paying attention to our guys and girls and be like, they're kind of acting a little strange or they're withdrawn or whatever else. And I think that's also important because we get so, especially in today's world, everyone's on their phone, everyone's not engaging and we were missing signs. We're missing signs about.

someone who potentially is about to be in crisis. And we should know each other well enough and be good partners to where we're actively taking an interest in every single person working in our department.

Vernon Phillips (39:58.016)

Yeah, absolutely.

So you brought up, you know, like the whole pageant system and, you know, we kind of got a little bit of a look a little while ago when you said that, you know, you want to do something for yourself and to challenge yourself. So, you know, kind of how, how did you kind of get into that realm and, and like, what does that look like? And obviously you said that, you know, one of your biggest things that you, you know, not necessarily your soapbox, but kind of your platform in there is the officer wellness, right. And, the importance of that. kind of.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (40:05.442)

Yeah.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (40:28.14)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (40:30.603)

Speak to that a little bit.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (40:31.904)

Yeah, so first pageant ever, I didn't ever expect to get involved in this world. I'm not that kind of girl. And I kind of rocked up, not thinking I wasn't going to win, but I didn't expect to. So when I did, was like, this is my message is resonating, especially because we how the pageant works is you have a set of judges that you interview with first. And so

pageantry is changing and the fact that it's very much emphasizing your charitable works versus just looking good on stage. So that interview was very important and I think the message I had really resonated with the judges because when you talk about first responder mental health to someone who's not in a first responding role, you can tie it all together with the fact that if you have a healthy first responding community, you have a healthy community period. Because those are the people that are going to come and basically be there on your worst day. So if your first responders are not mentally well, that's a no go. But yeah, I have an opportunity now to really push this foundation that I'm working with. It's called the Take My Hand Foundation. They're based here in Knoxville. was actually started by a fellow officer who was very honest about his issues with mental health. He ended up leaving the department. And he recognized, like we just spoke about, the need for immediate action if one of us come forward to say, I need to talk to someone. So he created the foundation to basically facilitate that.

And it's been doing really well. We've had a lot of interest, people actually reaching out, which every time an officer reaches out, I think that's, you know, just for one officer to reach out is a win for us because I would hate for anyone to feel like they couldn't talk. I think we also kind of officer to officer, need to, we need to maybe not be like, hey dude, are you like thinking of hurting yourself? But we need to be like, do you want to just talk?

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (42:43.095)

Because a lot of people are not going to respond well to, no, I don't want to hurt myself. What are you talking about? They respond better to, hey, let's just have a conversation about where you're at. Like, I can see something's wrong. And that is something I want people to take note of. Just ask someone to talk with you if you can see it. So, but yeah, I the pageant's super cool. I've got nationals here in about a month. And if I win...

I really want to start pushing it further into policy about how quickly we need to react to something like this. That's really what I want to do. And also the pageant itself has a national platform that we have to support, which for me is a good one. It's called Victoria's Voice. It's all about overdose prevention. So it kind of ties hand in hand though with what I just mentioned where healthy first responders mean a healthier community. We can respond more effectively to overdoses, to preventing overdoses, if we really focus on our first responders.

Vernon Phillips (43:48.631)

So obviously, I mean, being a deputy and then also, you know, being Mrs. Tennessee, how does that, do you get any kind of like, you know, like backlash from that? Like, how does that, I guess, you know, does anybody kind of give you a hard time? you know, is it kind kind of, kind of razz you about it?

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (43:55.799)

Okay.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (44:07.735)

the

Yeah, I mean, sure. Honestly, being a female in this profession kind of comes with that territory anyway, and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. that's always been, if any, you spoke to any of the guys, I know they would say this is consistent with me. If you're a female in this job, I expect you to pull just as much weight, if not more than the guys, because you don't have a right to be here just because you're a woman. Like you've got to, if I'm having the worst day of my life and I'm calling for help, I expect the responding officer to be just as capable as the next. So I'm...

Vernon Phillips (44:18.357)

Yep.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (44:40.438)

You know, I feel women do get a little bit of a tough rap sometimes, but then again, I feel like we have to prove ourselves and that's the right thing to do. I don't think we can expect to just be handed this position. I do think being a female in this job does give me some skillsets that maybe the guys aren't as honed in on. For instance, being able to talk to someone on scene in a way that's not just the officer, but being able to empathize and connect with someone. I think as a female, we can do that a bit easier and people are more receptive to it. So that can help in like any kind of de-escalation or anything like that. But now in terms of actually being Mrs. Tennessee, haven't had too much issue with it. Obviously, you know, there's the little quips around the department that, she's Mrs. Tennessee now, she's outgrowing us and everything else, but no, I'll always be a patrolman.

Vernon Phillips (45:38.336)

So what about in the community? Like, anybody recognize you from that? And they're like, hey, you're Mrs. Tennessee.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (45:46.907)

Yeah, don't... Knox County Sheriff's Office, we're actually live on Patrol Live on Friday and Saturday nights on reels and on peacock. So it's kind of like what Live PD used to be. So we have a camera crew riding with us and they often ride with me. And so I would say I get more recognition from that because I didn't realize how popular that show was.

But it's a really great opportunity to showcase the good work that we're doing and also the more, how do I say this? Right. It's a way in which we interact with our community that is caring, no nonsense. We're here to get a job done and it really highlights the department in a very good way. So I'd say I'm more recognized from that. And then they're like, and she's Mrs. Tennessee. So it's kind of a double whammy for me with that.

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (46:45.823)

So, you know, what is some, as we kind of start to wind things up here, what is some advice that you'd give to those just starting out in the profession? Like, just make a decision to go through the academy and then actually those just starting out with whatever agency department they're with.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (47:07.983)

say if you are just starting out in law enforcement, maintain your humility because you're not going to know everything. The academy is definitely not going to set you up for every single scenario you're going to come into contact with. Be a good steward of maintaining the ability to learn because if you

The day you come into the department and you go, know everything, I'm good, I don't need to listen to this, is the day you need to hang all your crap up because you're not safe anymore. So I would say to someone, maintain your humility.

Also, try and see the good because you're going to have hard days. Lean on your brothers and sisters because they will be there for you if you ask them to be. But keep training, keep your humility and you'll be fine. We're able in the state of Tennessee to become a law enforcement officer at age of 21. And I think as a 21 year old, that's quite a lot of responsibility.

And a lot of people are not fully, you you've got some arrogant personalities, you have personalities that may be a bit immature. So being emotionally mature enough to say, I still need to look at the mirror every day and ask myself, am I doing this for the right reason? Am I listening? Am I learning? That's gonna be one of the biggest benefits to someone entering into this job. It could potentially save your life.

Vernon Phillips (48:36.916)

Yeah, and I think those are great things to kind of instill and to push out there, especially the concept of humility, which doesn't get thrown around a lot in the law enforcement realm. This idea of being humble, of being, you know, of having that humility because that's just not something that over the course of law enforcement has been, you know, really brought to the forefront or even encouraged like, hey, there's always that, you know, hey,

Be confident and you need to be confident, right? You need to be confident in your abilities and who you are as an individual, but you don't need to be a jack, right? You don't need to be a jack wag and you don't need to, you can have some humility. Like you said, you don't know everything. even once you've been on the job, you know, for a number of years, there's still new things you can learn, right? So always maintain that humility and being teachable. I that's a big thing. And I think that that's a word that doesn't get thrown around a lot in this realm.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (49:07.935)

Okay.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (49:13.012)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (49:26.834)

and

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (49:33.556)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (49:34.836)

for sure.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (49:36.212)

Yeah, no, and it's very important. And I think a lot of people maybe come to realize that when they have a bad day at the office, they're like, oh, okay, I probably could have handled that better or whatever else. And it's kind of like a kick in the backside. But yeah, if you can start out, if you can start out with that attitude of I'm here to do a job, but I'm also here to learn, you should be all right.

Vernon Phillips (49:59.591)

Yep. And then lastly, before we wrap up, you kind of touched a little bit on it in the beginning part, but as you kind of look at where you're at now, know, with being in law enforcement and being Mrs. Tennessee and kind of entering the pageant world and that realm, how much has your faith played a part in that?

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (50:24.851)

would say quite a large part because it kind of goes back to one of the first discussions we had, which was I didn't realize I was this capable of the challenges I'd set forth to conquer. having belief that the way that I am is for a purpose and not trying to be someone else, and I was created this way for a reason has definitely been a big source of motivation and comfort for me.

It's something that I still, you know, I battle with sometimes on days when I'm not having a good day and I question a lot of things, but kind of taking it back to prayer and then also not being too hard on yourself for the things you don't have because you have gifts that a lot of people don't see. So that's kind of how I've seen it for myself. And yeah, it's something is too, I wanna make sure my daughter learns because...

In the world that we live in now, everything is so superficial and so shallow and I want her to know that she's perfectly made the way she is. She doesn't need to change, she doesn't need to be something she's not because who she is authentically herself is exactly who she's supposed to be. So yeah, hopefully that's a pretty good message for her at some point.

Vernon Phillips (51:48.208)

Yeah, no, for sure. Absolutely. I you know, obviously, you know, got God created us all to be specifically who we are. And, when we start to kind of get outside of that, you know, that's when things start to kind of get a little bit, you know, a little bit off, right? Kind of throws things out of balance. And that's, know, we've talked a lot about balance and just maintaining that. so I think that's, that's important. And, you know, I appreciate it. And that's a good message of me, especially to set for your daughter.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (51:56.955)

Yes.

Vernon Phillips (52:18.258)

You know, like, hey, look, you are made perfect the way you are. And there's nothing that you need to do to change that. I think that there's a, and we could spend a whole other segment on this about just the pressures of culture on, you know, not only, mean, yes, children in general, but especially, you know, young girls and what they need to look like and who they need to be, who they need to become and just, you know, this idea of

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (52:26.226)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (52:39.698)

Thank

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (52:43.9)

Yes.

Vernon Phillips (52:48.196)

what beauty looks like and all this. I that could be a whole other conversation.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (52:53.01)

For sure, for sure. And that's another reason I'm kind of glad I won Mrs. Tennessee because I'm not your typical pageant person. And I think a couple of people were kind of surprised that I won. And hopefully, you know, we won't get fully into it, but hopefully it shows women that you've just got to show up as you are, be passionate about what you do. And you can be, you know, you can have strength and you can have grace. There's no reason why you have to fit into a certain mold, like you are who you are. So don't stifle any of it, be who you are.

Vernon Phillips (53:27.366)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I appreciate you taking the time to come on here and just kind of dive into this and we need to learn a little bit about you, kind of what you're doing in your law enforcement career, but also in kind of the pageant world. So I appreciate that. If anybody kind of wants to follow you, where can they find you?

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (53:48.063)

Instagram and Facebook primarily. I'm not trendy enough for TikTok. So yeah, I'm an Instagram and then definitely old school Facebook follow. But yeah, just my name, Kirsten Zargman. I'm all over that, so.

Vernon Phillips (53:51.814)

Good.

Vernon Phillips (54:01.394)

And if you're good with it, I can put that in the show notes. absolutely. yep, so I appreciate the time. I appreciate you jumping on here. And it's been a great conversation. And I think we've definitely dived into some really cool topics. And I think that you definitely need to come back. And there's definitely some rabbit holes we could chase and go down.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (54:04.705)

yeah, that would be wonderful.

Kirsten Yule-Zaagman (54:25.397)

Yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, thank you so much for having me and I really appreciate what you're doing too. It's really important work. see you.

Vernon Phillips (54:32.196)

Absolutely. All right. Thank you. I appreciate it.