Speaking Truth with Tactical Chaplain Matt Domyancic

In this conversation with Matt Domyancic, we discuss the critical aspects of law enforcement and the role of chaplaincy in supporting officers' mental health and wellness. We explore the importance of self-care, the challenges faced by first responders, and the need for a proactive approach to mental health. Matt shares his experiences and insights on building trust within the law enforcement community, the significance of spirituality, and the necessity of addressing mental health before crises occur. The discussion emphasizes the importance of investing in oneself and the role of chaplains in providing support and understanding to officers.

Takeaways:

• Self-care is essential for first responders.
• Mental health awareness should be proactive, not reactive.
• Building trust takes time and consistent effort.
• Spirituality can play a significant role in resilience.
• Pain that is not transformed is transmitted to others.
• Investing in oneself is crucial for long-term wellness.
• Creating rapport is key to effective chaplaincy.

Tactical Chaplain Matt Domyancic

www.tacticalchaplain.com

IG: @thetacticalchaplain

in: @Matt Domyancic

Transcript

Vernon Phillips (00:01.994)

All right, welcome back to Critical Aspects of Law Enforcement. I'm your host, Vernon Phillips. And today on the show, we got a special guest. We've got Matt Damjancic. So hopefully I got that right, close enough. Matt, I appreciate you coming on the show. I'm going to turn it over you, just kind of get an idea of who you are. just know your background, how long you were in law enforcement, how long you've been doing the chaplaincy thing, kind of some of your hobbies and things like that.

Matt Domyancic (00:29.454)

Reader's Digest version. was a cop in Connecticut and in Fairfax County, Virginia, which is the DC area. worked patrol, peer support before it was even kind of a cool thing. Back then it was older women that worked admin jobs and showed up after an event and told you it's okay to cry and you want to hug. SWAT, full-time police academy instructor, where I implemented progressive breath work more.

Vernon Phillips (00:31.902)

Yes.

Matt Domyancic (00:56.086)

strength conditioning like a division one athlete, more shooting, more fighting, also an emphasis on lethal force psychology from Dave Grossman's content and the psychology and physiology of a violent encounter per Tony Blower's Spear System. The whole time I was a cop, I was also a college strength conditioning coach, first at Yale and then at Georgetown University where I also did campus ministry. So I was a cop, strength coach, doing campus ministry went through a gnarly medical retirement, ended up in LA. And yeah, that was a hard transition, but then continued to be a strength coach, a sports psychology consultant at a private facility for elite and NFL athletes. And then probably about a decade of doing police chaplain, peer support, kind of wellness stuff, and maybe in a different manner than stereotypical chaplains. My...philosophy was be proactive, ride, lift and shoot with the cops and deputies to proactively build relationships so they trust you, not wait until a critical incident, show up afterwards and say, hey, you wanna pray or spill your guts to me? And it's like, I don't know who you are. So that's Reader's Digest version of my background.

Vernon Phillips (02:08.753)

Yeah, and there's a whole lot there that we could just of tackle and say, okay, let's just focus on this. Let's focus on that. So obviously you have a pretty impressive background and what you bring to the table. you know, I'm sure it helps a lot of individuals, not just in the first, first responder realm, you know, with our, with our law enforcement, but also, you know, beyond that, you know, just with the, the different things that you've done. So, I appreciate what you're doing. appreciate the work that you're doing. you know, obviously even in ministry, law enforcement, all of that, right, that takes a toll on the individual. So what is it that you do to keep yourself just in the best, you know, peak operating condition that you can? So that's physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. So what is it you do kind of daily to kind of make sure all of that is in sync?

Matt Domyancic (02:50.19)

So what are the keys to the best in the society? biggest and most important. The most important thing is the place. But what are the non-medical, all-inclusive, and the easy way? So since I was a young kid and into football, I eat very strict. I'm very rigid around working out almost every day and getting tons of steps in. Cold plunging when I have the opportunity, sauna, cryotherapy, sensory deprivation, float tank. Obviously I have like my devotional time. I read the liturgy, the scripture every day. I do psychoanalysis, which is a form of therapy that they look at the unconscious. I've been doing that for about 20 years. I've also been in something called spiritual direction. Not a ton of people are familiar, but it's very often clergy who also have a background in some kind of mental health, but it's spending time with them seeing where God is showing up in your life and how your prayer life's going. having mentors, elders, peers, therapy, paying attention to stress management, sleep, nutrition, exercise, and movement. I try to go on retreats to kind of recharge my battery as much as we're listening to other people's stories or even being in ministry, being a coach, being a cop especially, anybody, ER doctors, nurses, veterans, Firefighters, all that suffering of other people that you're immersed in and being exposed to trauma. It takes a toll on our physiology and it takes a toll on our psyche and we know that from statistics. So I'm super high maintenance with self-care is not selfish. We can't give away that which we do not possess for ourselves. And if we don't heal what hurt us, we will bleed on people that did not cut us. So I take self-care very seriously.

Vernon Phillips (04:27.206)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (04:42.438)

Yeah, that's awesome. And there's a lot of things in there, obviously, that we can draw from. A couple of things that I like that you shared on, so obviously, you're in scripture every day. You're making that a priority. So obviously, from my standpoint as well as being a chaplain, that's an important aspect for myself, getting that in. But then you also hit on a couple of other things that I do quite often myself is goal plunging and sauna. So much to the point that now I've got at my house, we've got a sauna, we've got infrared sauna at the house, and we've got a cold plunge at the house because when I started getting into that a couple years ago, I just saw the benefits of it for myself and just how my body responded. So that's awesome to hear. there's people that are like, you do what? I'm like, yeah, like cold plunge? Like how cold? And I'm like, well, I mean, can set mine, mine's not like, I can't set it down to like below 40.

Matt Domyancic (05:30.701)

you

Matt Domyancic (05:36.493)

and look at these very good defense frames.

Vernon Phillips (05:41.65)

but I can get mine to about 42 degrees. And last week, it's kind of funny, I was just telling somebody earlier today, last week was one of the coldest days that we've had down here in Florida. And it was 15 degrees at my house when I woke up. And I went out in the garage and jumped in the cold plunge and I came in. A few minutes later, my wife is like, are you for real right now? I'm like, what? She's like, it's literally like 15 degrees outside. I'm like, yeah. So I'm a big fan of that. You know, the sauna, the cold plunge, you know, and then my wife and I, regularly work out together. We've got a gym set up in the garage. And that's something that we both kind of look forward to doing and being able to do together. So big fan of all that. So, and I appreciate you sharing that.

Matt Domyancic (06:09.016)

Ha ha ha.

Vernon Phillips (06:38.171)

I want you to say it again about the self care, I've never heard it before. And it was the, you said something along the lines of that we end up bleeding on people that didn't cut us. What was that again?

Matt Domyancic (06:42.94)

Yeah, I can, I'll go through some quotes that I use in almost every presentation. First of all, self-care is not selfish. We can't give away that which we do not possess for ourselves. That's self-love, self-worth, self-confidence.

If your battery's dry or your well goes empty, you can't give someone else a drink. And cops, alpha male, high warrior archetype are used to fix and take care of everyone else, burn the candle at both ends. Also, a famous spirituality author has a quote, pain that is not transformed is transmitted. Pain that is not transformed is transmitted. And even if you're like, hey, my life is good, you don't think all of that trauma that in the suffering of other people you're dealing with every day.

If we looked at your aura ring, HRV, your brain waves, EEG, if you were doing blood labs on blood sugar, hormones, inflammation markers, your physiology is affected by the stress and trauma that you face. So you need to do something to self-regulate because if you don't heal what hurt you, you will bleed on people that did not cut you. And who is that with cops and first responders? It's usually the family.

Vernon Phillips (07:53.017)

absolutely.

Vernon Phillips (08:03.803)

family. Usually your family. Yep.

Matt Domyancic (08:05.474)

Yeah, we're bleeding on our family. And then in the nineties at SIG Arms Academy, I first heard this from Dave Grossman. Are you familiar with Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman? Yeah. Good man. Pain that is pain that is shared is pain divided. And that ties into something called post-traumatic growth. We share our story to appear. Doesn't always have to be clergy or a therapist. If somebody pays attention to your story and you feel understood, not judged, they're not trying to fix you.

That can be very healing, not suck it up, drive on. So pain that is shared is pain divided, joy that is shared is joy multiplied.

Vernon Phillips (08:45.722)

Yeah, that's awesome. So, I appreciate that. are some good quotes that we probably should be reciting more often to ourselves, for sure. And then you also just brought up something else that we could probably chase a rabbit on as well, but HRV. When I started getting into the...

Matt Domyancic (08:55.598)

Ha

Matt Domyancic (09:03.95)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (09:11.442)

functional medicine and also holistic like looking and dealing with yourself not just from You know the traditional medical practice standpoint, but you know the holistic like hey, let's fix the whole person right? Let's not just fix one area you know that's where I got introduced to the infrared sauna the cold plunge the you know brain tap HRV and you know the the thing is with with HRV is man you can go in there and

Matt Domyancic (09:25.678)

Mmm.

Matt Domyancic (09:33.358)

for instance, 815 and you have to have a seat with the table.

Vernon Phillips (09:41.542)

You can say what you want, but the HRV is going to tell the truth of where you're at with your stress level. last time I went in and sleep last time, last time I went in, they said, uh, they're like, is going on? I'm like, what are you talking about? They're like, this is like one of the worst ones you've had yet. I'm like, I, know, I was just, you're kind of tapped out and they're like, no, you're

Matt Domyancic (09:51.176)

And sleep. And sleep.

Vernon Phillips (10:11.223)

you're like you're moving the needle beyond tapped out like what what's going on so it requires you to be honest with yourself and take it take take a look and be like okay man where do i need to kind of start moving this needle and make some adjustments because this isn't sustainable you know we always say that hey i'm really good i can i can function in high stress events and i'm good to go and i can just keep bam bam bam it's like okay, you might be able to do that for a period of time, but that is not sustainable as an individual. Eventually your body is going to break down and it's going to let you know that, hey, we're not good. you know, when we, that comes out in all kinds of things. comes out in disease and allergies and ailments in your body. And you know, the more that you start to learn that, the more you start to understand yourself as a person.

Matt Domyancic (10:42.862)

And you guys can talk to him. If he's a son of a bitch, he's a bitch. And he's good man. A good man is a boss. He's a good man.

Matt Domyancic (10:56.62)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (11:10.818)

and how you can offset that and you could put things in place to help alter that. So it's kind of funny because a lot of things you're sharing, I'm like, except for maybe the eating strict part, I'll go through phases where I'll eat really strict and then I'll kind of not do so well. So I still got to iron that part out, but so yeah.

Matt Domyancic (11:35.959)

We're all the work in progress for the rest of our lives. And I'm interested in the fact that you use Brain Tap. And I mean, that might be something to mention to people because I've used Brain Tap and other forms of neuromodulation, binaural beats. They're different forms of like mindfulness or meditation. So I think I think that's a beautiful thing that you brought up. And also, so people know there it's a there's a man of faith called his name is Rich Ganley Positive Impact Alliance.

Vernon Phillips (11:51.972)

Yep.

Matt Domyancic (12:04.504)

People can Google the recharge room. He installs red light therapy, sauna, cold plunge, a meditation app and Vegas nerve stimulator at police and fire departments. And he's friends with Dr. Thomas Seeger, which if you don't follow him, one of the world's experts on cold plunge and contrast like sauna, cold plunge and how much it helps mitochondria and mental health as well as our hormones and possibly PTSD and things like TBI.

Vernon Phillips (12:17.826)

Okay.

Matt Domyancic (12:31.436)

So there's science behind the cold plunge, the sauna, the red light therapy, as well as meditation and forms of silence and journaling. And if you're wearing the HRV ring, and I challenge guys, pay attention to your sleep. When I hug my woman or snuggle with her, may think I'm taking a nap. When I'm doing contemplative prayer, it thinks I'm taking a nap. So you can see the things in your life, people places things activities, food or drink that are draining your battery or recharging your battery.

Vernon Phillips (13:06.274)

Yeah. Yeah. So the brain tap, I got introduced to that. Like I said, when I started going to, it's called faithfully guided, they're a holistic medical practice. And when I first did it, I couldn't do it. Right. I just, I could not allow myself to sit in the chair and, and put the visor over and relax. And, know, so, but after that, after I kind of got out of, out of my own head, right.

Matt Domyancic (13:17.934)

And when I first did

Vernon Phillips (13:35.811)

I used it often. So we actually bought one for the agency that I serve. So I have one and I have people that will come and they'll sit and they'll do a session. And I've had several of the command staff do it. I've had all the way up to the sheriff, they've all tried it. And some of them, they're leaving, like, that is absolutely incredible. They're like, it literally makes me like,

Matt Domyancic (13:43.938)

Wow.

Matt Domyancic (13:50.766)

Thank

Vernon Phillips (14:05.799)

All the things that I need to think about, it wipes it out and I just have to sit in the moment, right? And I'm like, yeah, because it's stimulating your brain to that rest and relaxation depending on which track you pick. mean, whether it's in the morning and you're stimulating your brain to wake up and to be intuitive and to be creative and to kind of energize yourself or it's afternoon where

Matt Domyancic (14:13.297)

Mm-hmm

you

Matt Domyancic (14:29.196)

you

Vernon Phillips (14:34.817)

you where a lot of people have spent so much of their day just, you know, running and running and running their mind. And it gives them that opportunity to kind of just hit the pause and say, okay, let me just rest, relax, recharge, and then allow me to reconnect in a way that, you know, brings me down, kind of returns me to my, to my normal base level and just helps me operate better. So I just, you know,

Matt Domyancic (14:42.926)

and give your message to people.

Matt Domyancic (14:47.598)

you

Matt Domyancic (15:02.83)

So I think before, some of the other ideas.

Vernon Phillips (15:03.809)

before coming to doing this with you, had somebody come in and sit down and do a session. I'm trying, man. I'm trying to plug stuff in as much as I can.

Matt Domyancic (15:17.506)

It sounds like you're super progressive, Vern. that's brain taps a big deal. And maybe I'll tell you offline if you don't remember, there's another thing called touch points and you can put them on your wrist and it's bilateral stimulation, which is similar to what EMDR does. So there are another little gadget that you can sit, try to sit for 10 or 20 minutes, but yeah, you're doing good things, man.

Vernon Phillips (15:41.826)

We're trying, we're trying. Just trying to invest back into our people, trying to get them to see the importance of it's okay to invest in yourself, it's okay to say, hey, I'm kind of tapped out, I'm hitting, I'm getting pegged out, what can I do? So we're gonna keep kind of pushing forward on some of this stuff and doing what we can do. But for myself, this is stuff that I've been doing the last couple of years and it's significantly helped me.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I'm, know, straight as an arrow, even kill all the time because that's not realistic. Right. and you know, there's even time. Yeah. And there's even times where, you know, now that, now that my wife, you know, she knows all the stuff that I have gotten into and, and do, you know, she'll leave and be like, Hey, have you done any of your, you know, stress management techniques today? And I'm like, no, just.

Matt Domyancic (16:15.66)

you

Matt Domyancic (16:21.494)

Nobody is.

Vernon Phillips (16:38.594)

Leave me alone. me be in my poor attitude. And she'll call me out and be like, why don't you go sit in the sauna? Why don't you go do some breathing exercises? Take a minute, because you're being a jerk, right? For a lack of better words. But I think that as we move forward in law enforcement, think, and oh, just the first responder community.

Matt Domyancic (16:58.722)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (17:06.785)

You know, we need to start incorporating some of these things and allowing them to see like, Hey, not, you know, this isn't like woo woo stuff, right? We're not in here trying to, you know, you know, spin things around and, know, do all this fancy stuff and hypnotize you. Like, you know, there is some of that. So you have to be very discern what's good and what's applicable. But for the most part, the things that we're, you know, we're talking about, it's not the woo woo stuff, right? You know, we're not.

Matt Domyancic (17:17.134)

you

Matt Domyancic (17:26.574)

That's That's the plan. But, it's easy.

It's okay.

Vernon Phillips (17:35.956)

You know, we're trying to be all weird and mystic and crazy and all that kind of thing. but yeah, it's like I said, we could probably chase all these little, these little rabbit holes. So, but you know, for you, as you, as you kind of look at law enforcement.

Matt Domyancic (17:41.555)

I could.

Vernon Phillips (17:55.253)

What are some of the biggest roadblocks that you see right now?

Matt Domyancic (18:00.399)

think a lot of things haven't changed in 25 years. our, when we say mental health wellness, which chaplaincy is kind of lumped in there if you even got them, it's all, it's very much reactionary only, check in on people after a critical incident, and maybe from resources, if it's a volunteer chaplain, you never see, if you don't have a psychologist that gets paid to come ride along, be in briefing and roll call, and maybe depending on who your peer support people are, if they're not trusted, it's like, okay, signs and symptoms of PTSD, addiction and suicide. So mental health and wellness is like, wait until you have a mouthful of cavities before you go to the dentist where they got to yank all your teeth out versus how do you brush and floss with all the adversity, all the candy and the junk food that we got to eat as a cop or a first responder. And a couple of times a year, whether it's a therapist or peer support or a clergy you trust.

Are you checking in with someone else that can be more objective than you? Because we all play mental gymnastics to avoid looking at the skeletons in the closet and the demons in the mirror. So I think we need to be left a bang versus right a bang. And a lot of the mental health conversations online with the influencers and at conferences, it almost always has to be the cop that got a DUI, cheated on their third wife didn't get themselves prepared for a use of force. So they quit the job because it was too stressful or had to medically retire. And they went on a retreat or rehab or did five EMDR sessions. And now they're cured and they wanna be the guru, the shaman, getting the helpers high. But the main message in mental health and wellness is it's okay not to be okay and get help when you're rock bottom.

And I'd like to view this more like a fitness level, whether it's a spiritual fitness level, it's a physical fitness level. If you want to have a big bench and abs, you're going to have to manage stress, pay attention to sleep, work out appropriately, eat a certain way. And then when you get the bench or the abs you want, you can't just quit working out. it's more, can we view this more like sports preparation? You do strength and conditioning year round.

Vernon Phillips (20:10.026)

Yeah.

Matt Domyancic (20:16.566)

As soon as you feel an injury coming on, you go to sports medicine, the PT or the doctor, there's no shame in it and you stay on top of things. But the way we treat it too much is at least from, I hear guys like, Hey man, I don't want to go on a retreat. I don't want to talk to anybody. I don't want to burden the resources for all the broken people because we just talk about signs and symptoms of PTSD addiction and suicide. So I think we just continue to stigmatize things to write a bang after a crisis, which sometimes it takes people that to have emotional sobriety to say they want to change. But I think we should be bringing awareness how to brush and floss with trauma, adversity, you know, throughout a career.

Vernon Phillips (21:00.084)

Yeah, I mean, if you can get in there and remove that fuse, why would we not do that, right? So, and it's hard to do that, especially, you know, making sure you've got the right people in place. You've got enough people in place that, you know, you're going around and you're getting those touch points. You're getting those contacts where, you know, like you said, it's not just after a critical incident or traumatic event. It's, you know, it's before that. It's just touching base, like, you know, creating that and establishing that rapport and that relationship. We look at kind of where we're at right now in law enforcement and obviously there's always been a physical, right? You're always focused on the physical. It's picked up on the mental and the emotional, but I kind of look at the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual and I kind of feel like the spiritual is kind of starting to take a backseat, right?

Matt Domyancic (21:28.398)

Thank

Vernon Phillips (21:55.932)

I feel like there's been so much focus on mental health and wellness and the emotional aspect of keeping them well that we're kind of losing that spiritual component. What are your thoughts on that?

Matt Domyancic (22:11.278)

Well, it could be different where you're from, because you're saying losing it. So I was a cop in Connecticut, the D.C. area and a police chaplain in Los Angeles. And there really was no emphasis on the spiritual, you know. So it's not like I don't see it as we're losing it. I don't know. I've never seen it in the places that I've been law enforcement. And even when it comes up, say, as a chaplain and speaking in a new agency or starting to ride along in a new agency, people often think it too is stigmatized with whatever the worst experiences they've had with a hypocritical religious person. So even if somebody is a person of faith, they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't want them talking to me about anything spiritual, because it could be woo woo, right? Is this going to be some woo woo stuff? Or what's the agenda? Are there strings attached? Or does this person really love me?

and it's not gonna judge me wherever I am and can let me be authentic and share my story and my pain. can they, I mean, ultimately I would hope that spiritually what we're doing is trying to teach people how to love themselves more, forgive themselves and find meaning and purpose even in the horrible things that have happened to us or that we've witnessed on the streets as a cop. And it is a component of post-traumatic growth, like spirituality and having a faith life is a part of research that says you're gonna have better resiliency. And you might be, you know, so I don't know if that answered your question, but I don't know where it's, I haven't been anywhere where it's totally emphasized. And the reason I was shocked when I met you on LinkedIn is everywhere I've been, even in some of the largest agencies in the country, chaplains are volunteer only. And to be honest, a lot of them are completely ineffective. They're never around. And when they are,

Vernon Phillips (23:38.897)

Yeah, absolutely.

Matt Domyancic (24:03.49)

They bring donuts to talk to command staff or a supervisor. So the patrol, NART gang, SWAT, detective guys that really need them are like, I'm not gonna share anything with that person that thinks it's cool to hang around with the brass. So I've never seen an emphasis on the spiritual in any agency I've been in.

Vernon Phillips (24:22.737)

Yeah. And, I guess I maybe should have worded it a little bit different, but I don't want to say lose, but maybe just not as heavily, you know, engaged or, you know, emphasize if that makes sense. so I mean, yeah, fortunately for myself, you know, I'm in a, I'm an agency where, yeah, I mean, I'm full time. I'm always, you know, trying to, invest into our people and.

Matt Domyancic (24:23.158)

Yeah, and I guess I'm making sure more...

Matt Domyancic (24:30.828)

That is... 3...

Matt Domyancic (24:36.77)

Yeah.

to

Matt Domyancic (24:48.428)

you know,

Vernon Phillips (24:53.073)

That's a great benefit for me to be there, to be hands on.

Vernon Phillips (25:02.641)

people that know me there, like I've worked with them, you know, slung trays in the jail with them or, you know, we worked side by side together. So they, you know, I've already established that rapport. But you know, you did bring up a good point when you talk about, you know, chaplains and I don't want to beat up, I don't want to beat up chaplains too much, But, but you know, there's just this

Matt Domyancic (25:30.594)

Thank

Vernon Phillips (25:33.416)

historically or statistically, you know, they're, they're the, the old overweight white guys that, know, come and, know, they, hang around for a little bit or, you know, they, they, they can't relate or they try to relate and they, push too much and it turns people off and people are like, what are, what are, what are we doing here? Right. so trying to find people who, either have military background or who

Matt Domyancic (25:58.072)

So try to...

Vernon Phillips (26:02.833)

you know, are some type of, you know, high stress profession background. mean, you know, we've got a volunteer chaplain that was a ER trauma nurse before he became a pastor and he was also in the military. So, you know, he, he understands, right? He, he, knows his way around, you know, just critical incidents, like just chaos going on. And, you know, so he can plug in and he fits really well.

Matt Domyancic (26:04.974)

So sorry.

Matt Domyancic (26:29.23)

You

Vernon Phillips (26:33.372)

but the other thing is like, finding those individuals who are able and willing to step in and fill that role and also be culturally relevant. and it's, it's hard, it's hard. It's hard. It's hard to find people to fill that. It just is.

Matt Domyancic (26:55.886)

Yeah, I mean, you're talking about important things that I've heard over and over again. They want shared experience. It doesn't have to be police, fire, military, could be E.R., but has somebody been in the dirt, punch in the face, had to grind through something? So is trauma informed not through books and study, but through life experience and also culturally competent. And so if they don't come from a high warrior archetype background themselves.

You can build cultural competency, but it's like ride along a lot. Participate or observe in training. Be in the trenches like a military chaplain goes through boot camp, lives on base, deploys with the troops. You know, when I started and I'm wearing a shirt from South LA Sheriff, LA Sheriff's Department, that was the station South LA. I used to ride every Friday, Saturday graveyard shift, two man cars. So I had to ride behind the cage on the plastic seat.

Vernon Phillips (27:29.114)

Yeah.

Matt Domyancic (27:50.275)

The first six months, they thought I was an undercover federal agent because they were like, wait, you don't get paid. You're riding the midnight shift like like nobody cares about us. No chaplain, no psychologist. They ride for an hour in the front seat day shift somewhere where it's not dangerous. So they're suspicious as heck because they think nobody and a lot of agencies across the country because there's not chaplains and fully staffed psychologists.

Vernon Phillips (27:54.753)

Hahaha

Matt Domyancic (28:20.002)

that they feel are trauma-informed through experience and culturally competent. They're suspicious when somebody might show up and has some kind of background, but that's sad. We need more former first responders, veterans, ER doctors and nurses perhaps, whether it's volunteer or paid, that are willing to put hours in building relationships with the line workers, not the supervisors.

Vernon Phillips (28:46.169)

Yeah, and you probably get this question a lot too, but I'll get people that'll ask me they're like hey So how did you get the buy-in like what did you do to get them to trust you and I'm like? well, I'm a little bit different because I've I've been here right and I've worked with them and You know, I've been at this agency since I started you know, so you know people that are on the road people in the jail like You know, know them it wasn't

Matt Domyancic (29:14.115)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (29:14.235)

I didn't come in from the outside. So I can't answer that question. What I can say is, it's going to take time. You're not just going to come in and expect them to just automatically open up and tell you everything that you're hoping that they do. When you come in say, I just want them, and I hear it, hey, just want them to trust me, to be able to come to me and call me when they need it.

Matt Domyancic (29:33.518)

you

Vernon Phillips (29:44.43)

That'll come, but it's not gonna come when you show up and we're walking around and I'm introducing you to people and you say, well, hey, so what's one of the worst things you've experienced? It's like, you don't know this person, right? You can't lead with that. And I'm just kinda like, what are we doing, right? And then like we talked about beforehand,

Matt Domyancic (30:02.178)

Hmm.

Matt Domyancic (30:08.428)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (30:13.979)

On this show, I will ask individuals that you know, we're that are on here. I'm like, hey, you know, what's one of the worst calls you've gone through? How did you get on the other side of that? Right? But that's in the context of of we're having this conversation so that other people can understand like, hey, man, they went through that I went through something similar and they got on the other side of it. So I maybe I can get on the other side of it, too. Maybe I can, you know, put in the work and do what I need to and start my recovery process. So, you know, it's not just like you're going to start walking around and asking that. You know, that's almost like you're just wanting to hear the horror stories, right? So that you can get some type of buy-in and that's just, that's not how it works, right?

Matt Domyancic (30:51.299)

Mm-hmm.

Matt Domyancic (31:02.856)

No, I will tell you, even as a former cop that in South Central Los Angeles and in Torrance, PD, I rode usually two days a week and lifted weights two to three days a week at each station would go to firearms training, evoc. I mean, I put in hours. You might be looking at an investment of one to two years before somebody trusts you with their marriage problems, the doubts they have around their faith life, the calls that haunt them that they've never shared with anyone that they're having nightmares and they're drinking too much to get themselves to go to sleep. You could be talking a years, couple years process, depending on the person. Then there might be other people that they trust you enough. And when immediately it wouldn't be the first time you're at the station and introduced and then ask the question like you like that's going to shut them down. And they're going to tell all their buddies, this guy doesn't know what the guy or girl doesn't know what the heck they're talking about and you know, avoid them. But it's a very long time. I mean,

Vernon Phillips (31:51.673)

Yeah.

Matt Domyancic (32:00.239)

Cops are the most suspicious people there are, because they see so much bad stuff and people lie to them all the time. And cops have the best BS detector in the world. So you gotta be authentic. And if you show people you care, eventually you need to let them share the stories with you when they're ready and when they sort of ask. If you come in asking to share the worst call ever, or, hey, can I pray for you after my buddy just got killed?

Vernon Phillips (32:10.456)

Yeah.

Matt Domyancic (32:28.938)

I mean, it is kind of offensive to a lot of cops, even the cops that are people of faith. It's like, you don't know me, you didn't know my friend. Like, yeah, this is kind of sacred ground, the life and death we deal with. And if you can't come around on a more regular basis to understand what we go through, I'm not gonna share my grieving process with you at this point.

Vernon Phillips (32:52.794)

Yeah. And there's some, there's some that do that. Like they, they invest. Um, you know, I've got a friend who's a chaplain out in Texas. He's full time. Uh, he's not sworn, but you know, he came in from the outside. He's been full time for, I want to say the last, uh, seven, seven years, seven, eight years, maybe somewhere around there. Um, and he's got, mean, but he's put that time in and he's put the effort in and so he's gotten that buy-in. got that. He's established that rapport, you know, going out and, and riding, you know, as much as he can. so, you know, people coming in his office, stopping in his office and he always jokes. He's like, yeah, he's like, you know what? He's like, I, I stop at the gym every day. And he's like, well, hold on now. He's like, not to work out. He's like, just to fill up my water bottle. And, but.

Matt Domyancic (33:32.716)

much.

Vernon Phillips (33:51.769)

Yeah. And he says, he'll stop there and be like, Hey, chap, chap, when, when, when are you going to get in here? And, know, and, uh, and you'll get some sets with us and you know, wow, well, you know, I'll, I'll do it. And, uh, um, as soon as you, as soon as you come up and sit in the office and like, Oh, okay. Okay. We, go. And, it's, but he, he's, he's established that rapport now, right? Where he's, know, he's got that buy-in because he's invested the time now granted, you know, it's a, he's

He's full time, so that makes it a little bit easier. But there's a lot of other people that I know that.

Matt Domyancic (34:25.07)

I'm leaving.

Vernon Phillips (34:29.851)

I got another friend and he's sworn, he's a but he is, he's older, but he is in awesome shape. mean, the guy is the absolute beast. And I met him a couple of years ago on a trip out of country and him and I just hit it off really well. Just because we think the same, we see things the same.

We were down in the gym early in morning together and he just put together, squared away in good shape. We're over there, it's a whole group of chaplains and we went to Israel together and we went and saw Masada. Somebody was like, I was here one time and I made it down this mountain with 36 year olds and it was, you know, we did it in like 15 minutes or something like that. And we're like, there ain't no way. So we're like, all right, we're going to do it. So afterwards, you know, him and I, we, we, hooked it down Masada. So from the top all the way down, I mean, we were, we were, we were, we were at a pretty good tick. And I think we got down and we did it in like 13 and a half minutes, something like that. And we're like, there's just no way this guy this guy's full of it. And he'd come down, he was, he's like, I was just messing with you, I was just seeing if you guys would do it. how many other chaplains do you think that you could get and say, you know, it's 90 degrees out, let's run down Masada. they're just not gonna do it, right? So there are individuals, right, that kind of fit that,

Matt Domyancic (36:17.058)

Mm-hmm

Vernon Phillips (36:24.472)

fit the need, fit the mold really well. And then there's some that, and you and I talked a little bit about that when we were kind of going back and forth, like, where...

Where's the need and then how do we address that need? Right, so if you were gonna mentor somebody wanting to become a chaplain, what are some of the things that you encourage them to do? Or the kind of the do's and don'ts?

Matt Domyancic (36:41.646)

Bye!

Matt Domyancic (36:50.83)

Well, if they're not former law enforcement, if you can go through a Citizens Academy, that's a start. And I would say ride along at least once a week if you have the time. it's, mean, depending on if it's volunteer or not, but I think you should ride and ride on every shift and try to ride the whole shift. Don't you just partial ride alongs?

Vernon Phillips (36:59.157)

Yeah.

Matt Domyancic (37:19.394)

whether they'll let you or not, at least attend and observe firearms, EVOC, defensive tactics, arrest and control, every state calls it different things, but be busy in the trenches trying to understand them from their perspective. Don'ts, do not evangelize, proselytize, try to recruit people to your church. Do not push, and here's something that's important even as like a Christian there's over 45,000 different Christian denominations. And within each one of those denominations, there's conservative and liberal and all these things in between. when the job of a pastor is not to convert or pressure somebody to belong to your church or have your same theology, dogma or doctrine, it's really sharing the love of God with them. So it's about giving people a sacred space to be who they are and not be judged. And that's really hard to do for a lot of people that, because it's a different type of ministry. It's not, it's not Bible thumping. It's not trying to convert. It's not trying to baptize. It's not trying to get people to recommit their life to Christ. And the cops are suspicious of that. They're just so suspicious. So listen more than you talk and wait until somebody starts sharing.

Vernon Phillips (38:22.112)

Yeah.

Matt Domyancic (38:41.12)

whatever it may be that could be a burden to them without you needing to ask. Because trust me, if you put in the time, they will share if and when they're ready. And if you speak too soon, or you try to proselytize or evangelize, you make it hard for every other chaplain that comes after you with that person in that agency, or every other quote, like religious person or person of faith, because there are people that have church hurt and have been traumatized by bad theology and hypocritical or even well-intentioned people of faith. And so we need to do more just loving on people where they experience that unconditional love and the grace and the forgiveness and the lack of judgment rather than try to put words to all that type of stuff.

Vernon Phillips (39:33.066)

Yeah, no, and those are all great points. You know, we're going through trying to bring on a couple of new volunteer chaplains as well, and you know, just sitting down, talking with them like, hey, this is what we look for, this what we expect. And like you said, it's tough finding individuals that have that time, right? Because pastors are notorious for doing what saying yes to too many things, right? And getting involved and getting involved over here and in this ministry and this ministry and this ministry and this ministry. so then the next thing you know, like you're pulled in so many different directions that even if you can come and ride along for a shift or half a shift that you're so preoccupied with

Matt Domyancic (40:08.259)

Yeah.

Matt Domyancic (40:29.336)

You're so preoccupied with all the things you should be doing, you should be doing, that I ain't got time you. You're literally an opportunity.

Vernon Phillips (40:30.941)

all these other things that you should be doing or could be doing, right, at that time that you're missing that opportunity to connect. Even if you go and you get in the, you sit there and nobody talks for six hours, you're there, right? And you're showing them that, you're comfortable in the uncomfortable. But.

Most pastors can't go and sit for six hours and not say a dang thing.

Matt Domyancic (41:05.536)

Because I mean, I'm not going to say it's a bad thing, but a lot of whether it's Bible, college, seminary training, they are taught their job is whatever their narrow slice of religion or denomination is. Man, even my salvation might be at risk if I don't convince other people to join my church, my tribe, and they're taught to teach, preach and defend. A chaplain's job is a ministry of presence, a hospital chaplain. Like if somebody wanted real training go get a clinical pastoral education at a hospital. They're gonna teach you to hold space for all kinds of people and you're meeting them where they are, whether they're Muslim, Jew, agnostic, atheist, spiritual, but not religious, or they're Baptist and you're Methodist, right? Like you let them be where they are and you share love with them. Yeah, that's really hard to find with a lot of clergy because they've been trained to do a lot of talking, but real chaplaincy and something called spiritual direction.

and spiritual direction schools are usually two to three years long. It's learning how to listen to someone and be a ministry of presence.

And hang out with the line, the deputies that are working the jail or working patrol specialized units for whatever reason they think it's sexy a lot of times to hang out with brass. That's another big mistake I see. So.

Vernon Phillips (42:33.492)

Yeah. And, know, I want to point out that it's not that, that they don't need it also, right? And it's, you know, it's not the fact that, that the brass doesn't need somebody to, go and meet with them, right. And invest into them, but you have to view it from the standpoint of somebody on the line level where, you know, if they don't know you and you haven't, you haven't got that buy-in yet, right. Or you haven't created that rapport that, you know, if they, if you're sitting there and then you come and you ride in the car with them, what's the first thing they're going to think?

Matt Domyancic (43:09.87)

I'm not saying anything because you're going to tell the captain, lieutenant.

Vernon Phillips (43:10.516)

I'm not saying anything because the first person you go and see is whoever the supervisor is or whatever. But once you're able, once you establish, then you can go and you can invest and you can go and you can sit with all the individuals at whatever that agency or department is, right? Because then you've established that credibility where people understand that you're there for everybody, right? But you're also

Matt Domyancic (43:43.778)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (43:49.105)

not going to violate our confidentiality or if I tell you something I know that you're not going to go back and say you know this to somebody else. know what people don't realize it or not is that you know chaplains are a lot of times the secret keeper right and if you have the trust right the secret keeper and

Matt Domyancic (44:10.69)

Mm-hmm if if you have the trust yeah

Vernon Phillips (44:19.635)

goes back to the whole self care thing that if you're a chaplain and you're at that point now, where that's kind of like, you're that person, where pretty much anybody will come and they'll talk to you they'll share eventually.

Matt Domyancic (44:41.11)

Peace.

Vernon Phillips (44:42.189)

It gets heavy. So you have to be investing in yourself. You have to be taking care of yourself. And another thing that I've seen is there's a lot of chaplains that are, you know, they're teaching classes on stress or resilience or self care. And it's like, I don't mean anything by this. And I am not the, you know, the best example always myself. But if you're going to get in front of a bunch of cops,

Matt Domyancic (44:46.882)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (45:10.548)

and tell them how they need to take care of themselves, right? You better at least somewhat look the part.

Matt Domyancic (45:19.982)

Amen. That's mental health professionals and chaplains are teaching all this wellness stuff. And they look a lot of them. This is the fact because this is what the guys and girls tell me. I don't want a frumpy overweight middle aged female therapist or the old out of shape white guy that can't even get in and out of the cruiser. Right. Practice what you preach. You got to role model that. We influence people by how we're living our life, not by what we're putting up on a PowerPoint.

Vernon Phillips (45:24.289)

Yes.

Matt Domyancic (45:49.687)

And definitely not the mental health professionals and chaplains that take a picture doing selfies with the sheriff or the chief. And that's what they blast all over their social media. You don't walk the talk and you're showing that you don't understand the culture. So yeah, man, that's that's mental health and wellness in general, not just chaplains like you got to look the part or these guys and gals aren't going to trust you.

Vernon Phillips (46:14.124)

Yeah, I mean that's the thing. You get up there and you're like, look, you gotta invest in yourself, you gotta take care of yourself, you gotta be making sure you're taking care of the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual, and you're up there looking like a soup sandwich.

Vernon Phillips (46:32.803)

It's going to hit flat and it's not going to be received well. I don't mean this in any type of negative way because like I said, you're a prime example of being put together and being in shape. I do the best I can. I could be doing better. I'll put some weight on, I'll lose some weight. I'll put some weight back on, I'll lose some weight most of the part, know, 80 % of the time I'm trying to invest in myself to keep myself, you know, better than what I was before. And we all, we all kind of go through the seasons where you kind of just get in a rut, you get out of the routine, you kind of get in that funk, but you don't stay there, right? But then you also are honest about that.

Matt Domyancic (47:23.49)

Mm-hmm.

Matt Domyancic (47:28.322)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (47:28.675)

A couple years ago I talked on emotional intelligence and I said, I'll be the first one to tell you, there's been some times at my house where I have not managed my emotions the best that I needed, you know, and then I have to go back my son or my daughter be like, you know, yes, what, you know, whatever it was that you did, my reaction to that.

Vernon Phillips (47:59.347)

that needed to be. Because you know got everything else going on and you know that was just kind of that thing that tipped you over the edge. It doesn't mean that you know you're we're not going to address whatever the issue was but if I'm being accountable to myself and if I'm being authentic I need to go and be like hey look

Matt Domyancic (48:07.992)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (48:21.812)

I was in the wrong. shouldn't have raised my voice. You know, I shouldn't have said X, Y, Z. So if you're gonna get up there, then least be honest and be like, hey, you know what? Let me go through this. Obviously right now I'm probably not the best candidate for it, but.

Matt Domyancic (48:29.1)

Mm-hmm.

Vernon Phillips (48:41.084)

something I'm getting better. and but yeah you know like I said I'm not trying to beat people up but...

Matt Domyancic (48:49.386)

Now, I mean, nobody's perfect. We're all a work in progress. Can we be better today than whatever we were yesterday? And we shouldn't be competing with anyone else. And the more we experience, if we're having a healthy emotional and spiritual journey, I think, whether it's success or suffering, we're more humble and grateful for the good things in our lives. And we get we just keep trying to put one foot in front of the other. And it's going to be for the rest of our lives. None of us ever quote arrive in every area of our life, you

Vernon Phillips (49:20.546)

Yep, it's a process of sanctification like it's never gonna end right You're like it's always you have to continue to invest in yourself and grow You know whether that's physical mentally emotionally spiritual like you have to continue to invest so You know I'll be respectful your time Matt, but as you kind of look at where you're at now You know how much is God you know played?

Matt Domyancic (49:28.984)

Mm-hmm.

and you're learning a thing again.

Matt Domyancic (49:47.224)

How much God you play.

Vernon Phillips (49:51.298)

where you're at today, just your faith and your relationship with him.

Matt Domyancic (49:51.535)

the way you want to do it. Wow, I wouldn't know how to summarize. mean, like I grew up, you know, we had to go to church. My mom said prayers every night before bed. My dad's a very prayerful man. He's almost 81, but he sits in his chair one to two hours a day and prays in silence. So I had I had good role models when I was young. I never left the church and through longer stories some other day.

Vernon Phillips (49:57.825)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Matt Domyancic (50:18.158)

You know, in college football, I had a really severe injury that they thought I would never play again. And if I can't run and play football, I can't do law enforcement or go back in the military. And I had a little bit of awakening, I should say a big awakening where I was like, there's more to faith life than saying my prayers to be good at football, to get a good grade on a test. And maybe back then, get me through this hangover. I'll never drink this much again. I haven't drank in 30 years, not because I have or had a problem anyways, I had somewhat of, I think, immature faith. I'm following these purity codes and rules of morality to get to heaven on the day I physically die, far down the road. And through that football injury, I realized I prioritized football over God, so to speak. And I was like, how do I really give my life to God? And that was about 30 years ago. I'm 51. So God in my faith has been the anchor of my life in so many ways. And I actually became a cop

Vernon Phillips (50:54.496)

Really?

Matt Domyancic (51:18.464)

as a form of ministry. thought I wanted to be a Fed. I went to Air Force Academy and Colgate undergrad. Those are kind of prestigious academic. I had a master's in forensic science under Dr. Henry Lee, the world's most renowned forensic scientist. And I thought I wanted to be a Fed. then I, longer stories, did an internship training with special operations on a mountain in West Virginia with Rod Ryan, former Green Beret, DC SWAT, who's a man of faith and took me under his wing.

And through a discernment process, I was like, what better place to do ministry than law enforcement? The victims are having sometimes the worst day of their life. A lot of the criminals, obviously not a good day. And, you know, thanks to the grace of God, I wasn't raised in these situations where maybe I could have turned out to be a criminal. So we get an opportunity to really love on people in their darkest hour. And that's what I saw police work as an opportunity to grow in my faith. And

Vernon Phillips (52:04.66)

Yeah.

Matt Domyancic (52:16.534)

Yeah, I loved it. yeah, God's the anchor of my life. I'm not perfect. And I'm trying to work out my salvation every day, brother, and just trying to be a better version of myself every day and to serve other people the best I can based on all the love that I can see that I've received from God.

Vernon Phillips (52:18.165)

Yeah.

Vernon Phillips (52:35.103)

Yeah, I appreciate that. what if somebody wants to reach out to you or get in contact with you? What's the best way for them to do that?

Matt Domyancic (52:43.226)

My website is tacticalchaplain.com. So tacticalchaplain.com and on Instagram, there's the tactical chaplain and thin blue line spirituality, thin blue line spirituality. And I'm on LinkedIn, that's how we met. So reach out on LinkedIn, Instagram or through the website. Happy to talk to anybody in law enforcement, first responders that want some support.

Vernon Phillips (53:06.708)

Yep. And I'll add all that in the show notes. So Matt, I appreciate it. It's been a great conversation and we could probably continue and just go on. And I'm sure that we'll have a couple of more episodes here in the future. So I appreciate it.

Matt Domyancic (53:17.088)

Yeah.

Matt Domyancic (53:24.194)

Thank you so much, Vern, a privilege.

Vernon Phillips (53:26.302)

Yep, absolutely.